An alternative to parsers...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So... did everyone who ever clear never watch/read a guide? Do you think everyone starts at "blind learning party"? That seems kind of silly especially since in my time in MMOs, "learning parties" are pretty unique to XIV. Also having "no bonus" attached to you doesn't make you an expert either, and having one doesn't make you a complete noob - while alts are rare, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, no one is going to believe that it's "just an alt", so they'll get lumped in the same group regardless... how is that not elitist?

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else. Regardless, it's a moot point since the patch notes allow us to block first timers. No more sneaks allowed.

[Inuk9]

Nice improvment to the party finder. Yesterday I got 2 sneakers in the A12s farm.

[DRHaymaker]

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else.

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

Nor is their proof they will be able to handle mechanics they may have not fully sense themselves. What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance." If I stipulate this is a farm party, I expect people to not only have knowledge of the fight but have cleared it a few times. If they suck, I replace them. Allowing everyone in defeats the entire point. Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties. That isn't elitism, it is simply playing the odds. I am far more likely to find decent players for a farm group who have cleared than chancing on those with bonus. If it's an alt, they can send me a tell and I'll see. Otherwise, respect the parameters set by the party leader. If you don't like it, don't join that party.

[Sinrai]

Yeah sure, but this is in normal mode, can you please take a min to explain why this happened?

Bad gear, no effort, first time. It happens, especially if that was a public group. But are you seriously complaining about normal mode? That's exactly what I don't want in this game, people being "encouraged" in normal content to play better. Yeah, right. The only thing you're encouraging is elitists feeling justified to push their views on everyone else.

These kinds of things have to be thought through from all angles, since it can have unintended consequences.

Limiting it to higher difficulty content is something I'd be willing to put up with, since you'll have to do well there anyway to succeed. Also, nothing that is mandatory for the main story quest.

-snip-

Too idealistic, there's no way it's only going to happen in high-end content.

[DRHaymaker]

What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance."

Pump the brakes there puddin' pop. I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights. My point was, and has always been that if people are worried about elitism being introduced if parsers were no longer against ToS, that it was already alive and well - a point you keep proving post after post.

Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties.

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

[akaneakki]

..

Was no first timers and everyone was over 260. How is it elitist saying they can't beat a normal mode and they need to get better? I thought the whole point in a pve based game to beat the content? Or are you just going to sit there and pretend its fine?
I'm not ''complaining'' about the normal mode, you are just proving my point here. You say you don't need a a parser and only what you can come with is ''elitist''. So beating content is being elitist? lol Yet you see a group here wiping at 66% with massive overgear. Try come with a better arguement than elitist.

Fir

The word elitist is so over used. Most people who are bonuses doesn't make the effort. I've seen some who actually do but it's rare. But again, I'm there to farm as well and I don't wanna take the risk of a person who might be bad or good, because if hes bad the group will mostlikely just disband. It's how it works, because people wont be put up with it. There is abosluttely NOTHING wrong having no bonus in group, you simply just need to deal with it. Like he/she said, I'm there to farm not to take the risk of a person being bad or not and then give them a clear.

[DRHaymaker]

The word elitist is so over used. Most people who are bonuses doesn't make the effort. I've seen some who actually do but it's rare.

I agree, but that's a problem that honestly the community has fostered through it's intolerance of things like parses and the "necessity" of learning parties. As buzzwordy as "elitism" is, sometimes you need to use their own nebulous definition as the reason of why it's wrong.

I'm there to farm as well and I don't wanna take the risk of a person who might be bad or good, because if hes bad the group will mostlikely just disband.

The solution to that is to not do PUGs, or have the majority of the group be people that you know, because on top of skill, you're also running the risk that people will leave once they get what they wanted... or wipe once because of something that was an honest mistake or lag, etc. - i mean, they have no obligation to stick with your group really. Point being there is an intrinsic risk with PUGs period, and a substantial chunk of risk still remains if you remove bonuses.

[Sylvina]

Of course you don't NEED learning parties but they sure help. I Just look forward to watching people block first timers from SB content from day one, as I'm sure will happen and will end about as well as it sounds.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves. If they have, you join a clear party, not farm. It's a rather simple process, really.

Learning party - Players who have yet experience any mechanics from the proposed trial or raid.
Clear party - Player(s) who have seen all or most mechanics, yet haven't got their clear yet.
Farm - Players who know the fight and exact to kill it multiple time for weapons, glamour or a mount.

You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations. You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.