An alternative to parsers...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Who says the people that cleared the fight weren't carried, or was dead for most of the fight when they did? Who says that the people who haven't cleared it yet never watched a video, and doesn't have a high enough awareness and knowledge of the class where they would die less/equal to the amount of times of someone who has cleared?

If they die too often, they will be kicked or the group disbands. Simply put, I couldn't care less. If I make a farm party, the intent is to kill the boss as fast as possible. Watching a video isn't going to make you an expert and if I were interested in teaching, I would join or create a learning party. You aren't entitled to a clear because you want one.

[DRHaymaker]

If they die too often, they will be kicked or the group disbands.

Which is fair... but it doesn't prove the point that "NO BONUS" doesn't have an elitist tone to it.

Watching a video isn't going to make you an expert

So... did everyone who ever clear never watch/read a guide? Do you think everyone starts at "blind learning party"? That seems kind of silly especially since in my time in MMOs, "learning parties" are pretty unique to XIV. Also having "no bonus" attached to you doesn't make you an expert either, and having one doesn't make you a complete noob - while alts are rare, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, no one is going to believe that it's "just an alt", so they'll get lumped in the same group regardless... how is that not elitist?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So... did everyone who ever clear never watch/read a guide? Do you think everyone starts at "blind learning party"? That seems kind of silly especially since in my time in MMOs, "learning parties" are pretty unique to XIV. Also having "no bonus" attached to you doesn't make you an expert either, and having one doesn't make you a complete noob - while alts are rare, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, no one is going to believe that it's "just an alt", so they'll get lumped in the same group regardless... how is that not elitist?

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else. Regardless, it's a moot point since the patch notes allow us to block first timers. No more sneaks allowed.

[DRHaymaker]

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else.

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

Nor is their proof they will be able to handle mechanics they may have not fully sense themselves. What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance." If I stipulate this is a farm party, I expect people to not only have knowledge of the fight but have cleared it a few times. If they suck, I replace them. Allowing everyone in defeats the entire point. Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties. That isn't elitism, it is simply playing the odds. I am far more likely to find decent players for a farm group who have cleared than chancing on those with bonus. If it's an alt, they can send me a tell and I'll see. Otherwise, respect the parameters set by the party leader. If you don't like it, don't join that party.

[DRHaymaker]

What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance."

Pump the brakes there puddin' pop. I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights. My point was, and has always been that if people are worried about elitism being introduced if parsers were no longer against ToS, that it was already alive and well - a point you keep proving post after post.

Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties.

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves. If they have, you join a clear party, not farm. It's a rather simple process, really.

Learning party - Players who have yet experience any mechanics from the proposed trial or raid.
Clear party - Player(s) who have seen all or most mechanics, yet haven't got their clear yet.
Farm - Players who know the fight and exact to kill it multiple time for weapons, glamour or a mount.

You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations. You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.