4 Man Balance =/= 8 Man Balance

[Mahkii]

I just wanted to create a thread to get the community started thinking about this before we watch jobs get kicked in 4 man content for not being part of 8 man content meta.

For what I'm about to say, I'll let you guys reply to this thread and discuss the numbers and math. I am just going to express the general idea and let you guys think about it.

When we look at 8 man savage raid content, a lot of us (at least in our current raid tier did) look for jobs that have raid party buffs that increase the raid damage output of other players or the entire party. Our meta for the past tier became developed off of that notion.

What I want you guys to think about is how useful a buff is that affects an entire party when the party size is 4 and not 8. I think if you go into the math, you will probably find that jobs that have higher potential for their own output and lack those raid party buffs would actually be better to have in a 4 person sized party. If not better, then they should be at least on par.

The reason I bring this up is because our game has players who do not think this way and will kick players from dungeons for not being a job that is part of the 8 person sized party meta. I would like to get us to all start thinking about this sort of thing before people go off and do things like this.

[dragonseth07]

I've never seen a dungeon kick for this reason. Seems REALLY out there.

I've seen plenty of kicks for good and bad reasons, but never one for this.

[Mahkii]

I've never seen a dungeon kick for this reason. Seems REALLY out there.

I've seen plenty of kicks for good and bad reasons, but never one for this.

Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

[Kacho_Nacho]

Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

Then those former WoW players are going to be in for a shock. From my observations, FFXIV players give more pushback when someone attempts to kick another for a stupid reason in a four man.

Heck, even when there's a good reason to kick the other, FFXIV players usually deny the kick. They rather just finish the dungeon. Granted this is all subjective but I've never observed the kind of behavior a lot of the "sky is falling, (insert job) will be kicked from every instance" posts go on about. I believe most players are aware of the meta but understand it doesn't matter in four mans.

[Tiva]

The only time I've seen something similar to this was in 2.0. When speedrunning/sac runs to farm tomes was king, groups typically wanted pld/whm/brd/blm. IIRC that was considered the BEST dungeon comp. (It probably wasn't, but I think it was considered to be.) So it was annoying for others to find a spot. Players who were part of that "best comp" had it made for finding groups and everyone else had to kind of mash together into other groups.

It's not the same thing as kicking someone. but it's also not ideal or fair. I think the ways this game has changed will make this not happen again tbh. But I may be surprised.

[LegoTechnic]

Then those former WoW players are going to be in for a shock. From my observations, FFXIV players give more pushback when someone attempts to kick another for a stupid reason in a four man.

Heck, even when there's a good reason to kick the other, FFXIV players usually deny the kick. They rather just finish the dungeon. Granted this is all subjective but I've never observed the kind of behavior a lot of the "sky is falling, (insert job) will be kicked from every instance" posts go on about. I believe most players are aware of the meta but understand it doesn't matter in four mans.

As a former WoW player, my observational opinion over the past two years is that there is absolutely no difference in the community outside of the obvious lack of Alliance vs Horde fangasms.

[Venjenz]

Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

I played WoW to the raid game through the first 5 xpacs over some 8 years...and not one time did I ever see someone kicked from a 5 man dungeon, in any mode, based solely on their class/spec. I don't even know anyone who has ever seen it happen, or even heard of it.

This is forum myth, nothing more.

And even in 8/24 player content, there are very few proper super-meta elite statics out there, and the folks in them max every class, all the gear, and practice endlessly to be in that top tier, so yes, they have class restrictions on certain things, but not easy-as-pie 4 man DF stuff.

[Muchmidget]

I haven't seen it either....hope I never do. Though if people are complaining about having a WHM in a 4-man they're crazy...Holy spam is incredibly good for AOE.

[QooEr]

i actually did the math a while back and the results are very varying. i did all of this assuming dps is constant (which is not) but it shouldnt matter too much honestly

first i got the effectiveness of each rr effect compared to the effectiveness of a single balance
extended = (60+25)/30 = 2.833 times more effective than a balance
enhanced = 1.5*(30+25/30) = 2.75 times more effective
extended is always better than enhanced if it lasts for the full duration of 85 seconds.
expanded depends on party dps so it should be something like... this 2*0.5 + h/d * 0.5 + t/d * 0.5 = 1+(h+t)/2d
where h is healer dps, d is dps...dps. and t is tank dps

if we want to know the breaking point for when extended is the same as enhanced we gotta do
1.2*time= 1.3*55 + (time-55)
you evaluate the equation and get 82.5 seconds


its all dependent on party dps so lets just assume everyone is good at what they do.
usually (good) healers do about 1300 dps right now, and tanks like 1800 i think? dont quote me on that. decent dps do like 2100 dps afaik

now we see what the party's damage would be after 85 seconds in every scenario and assuming both dps do about the same damage (D will be one dps and d will be the other one)


no buffs
85 * (D + d + h + t) = 85 * ( 2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) = 620500 damage

for extended
85 * (2.833 * 1.2 * D + d + h + t) = 1048828.6 damage

enhanced (lasts 30 seconds less, mind you)
85* ( (2.75 * 1.2 * 55+30)/85 * D + d + h + t ) = 886150 damage

expanded (i split it into the first 40 seconds of balance, 15 seconds of whoever you used time dilation on, and the remaining dps without buff

40 * 1.1 * (D + d + h + t) + 15 * (1.1* D + d + h + t) + 30 * (D + d + h + t) =
40 * 1.1 * (2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) + 15 * (1.1* 2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) + 30 * (2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) = 652850 damage

this is of course assuming people are decent at their job but in order to tell right on the spot youd probably need to have to express every party member's dps in terms of the highest party member's dps and try to approximate what these numbers would be like which is. honestly not remotely close to being worthy

TLDR extended rr is better than enhanced if it can last 85 seconds. 82.5 seconds or less means enhanced is better.

[Elamys]

TLDR extended rr is better than enhanced if it can last 85 seconds. 82.5 seconds or less means enhanced is better.

Very interesting numbers, but this is about balance as in terms of game balance, not the card buff.