WHM might be meta

[QooEr]

Just for perspective, if I could chalk it up to one ability why SCH is currently meta, it is an ability called Whispering Dawn. Basically, SCH has both shields and AOE regen currently and will continue to in 4.0. WHM isn't able to compete with that right now and I don't see it being able to in 4.0.

While i agree that whispering dawn is amzing because its an ogcd medica 2 with no mp cost, asylum can have the same effect for saving healing gcds in some fights. in fact, assize now heals and does damage. Im not saying white mage will always outshine scholar, im saying that it CAN outshine scholar in SOME fights

[Mahkii]

While i agree that whispering dawn is amzing because its an ogcd medica 2 with no mp cost, asylum can have the same effect for saving healing gcds in some fights. in fact, assize now heals and does damage. Im not saying white mage will always outshine scholar, im saying that it CAN outshine scholar in SOME fights

What's OP about Whispering Dawn is that it comes from the shield healer. That means you can stack it with the regen healer's AOE regen (Aspected Helios, Medica 2) and then both healers can just spam DPS for a while without healing. If you do this right in certain fights of Creator Savage, you can skip entire phases that you may have not known you could skip.

[QooEr]

That means you can stack it with the regen healer's AOE regen and then both healers can just spam DPS for a while without healing. If you do this right in certain fights of Creator Savage, you can skip entire phases that you may have not known you could skip.

oh i know. but for example, in a10s speedkills scholars usually use whispering dawn like 20 seconds into the fight and that way both healers can have 100% cleric stance uptime during the first phase. however, asylum has the same effect. in fact, i have a run of a10s where both me and a white mage have 97 percentile parses without any food or pots.

if 4.0 whm existed right now, a9s speedruns would bring a whm since itd have way better aoe damage, as well as assize which both heals and deals damage, and also asylum which would alleviate heals from the ast.


as i see it, dps optimization for healers is really dependent on the fight, which means that while scholar's tools could be amazing in one fight, white mage might be able to do about the same in some fights while bringing more dps.

you can stack medii and asp helios too btw

[Sighearth]

Hm interesting but I dont think WHM will do 1.3x SCH dps. They will do more ofc, but not that much of difference, lets look in WHM and SCH potencies for 1 min dpsing (24 gcds) (assuming both have the same magic damage)

24 GCDs ( 1min)
------------------------------------------
aero3 x 2.5 -> 2.5 * 370 = 925
Assize x 1 = 300
StoneIV x 21.5 = 5590
WHM total => 5590 + 925 + 300 = 6815 potency/min
---------------------------------------------
SCH: 24 GCDs
Bio2 x 2 -> 350 * 2 = 700
Miasma x 2.5 -> 300 * 2,5 = 750
Energy Drain x 3 -> 150 * 3 = 450
1 x Shadow flare = 250
Broil2 x 19.5 -> 230 * 19.5 = 4485
SCH total => 6635 potency/min

That means the WHM can do 180 potency/min more than SCH. Now if we count chain strategem we get 20% more crit for 15 seconds with 90 secs cd, lets assume that this buff have 100% up time ( which means the duration goes 6x higher and the crit chance 6 x lower to maintain the proportion) that mean we will have 3.3% more crit for 90 seconds with 90 seconds cd (100% uptime). What is better to bring? 180 extra potency/min or 3.3% more crit for the entire fight?

Lets assume the fight have a duration of 10 min, so WHM would bring 10 x 180 = extra 1800 potency. for 10 min we would have 24 * 10 = 240 gcds, with 3.3% crit it is expected that we get around 3 critted gcds for every 100 gcds, which for 240 gcds means approximately 7 gcds should crit for every person in the party. So is 8 x 7 = 56 gcds should crit ( for the entire 10 min duration encounter) because of the SCH buff, for every crit will have 50% more potency for that gcd, which means 56 gcds will have 50% more potency.

Now this part gets tricky, because higher the potency, higher the 50% increase will be so it will depends of those gcds that the entire party will use. For that increase to surpass the 1800 extra potency from the WHM, the sum of all increased potencies of those 56 gcds must be higher than 1800 as follows: 56 x 0.5 (potency) > 1800
0.5 x potency > 1800 / 56
potency > 32.14 / 0.5
potency > 64.2

We can see that by doing : 64.2 potency with crit is 96.3 ( 64.2 * 1.5) that means we get extra 32.1 potency per gcd, now making it for those 56 gcds we have 56 * 32.1 = 1797.6 which is less than 1800 as the proof.
Ok if we get the next whole number potency = 65 potency we get (65 * 1.5 = 97.5) so (97.5 - 65 = 32.5) now, (32.5 * 56 = 1820 potency) ( which is higher than 1800).

My conclusion: If every party member can use a gcd with 65 potency or higher than SCH will contribute more to dps than the extra potencies that WHM have. As 65 potency is a pretty low value, I dont see WHM getting over SCH in the meta from the DPS perspective.

[MsTanya]

Its more likely than not that stratagem is multiplicative, not a flat 20%, and you forgot aero 2 in the whm rotation, its 50 potency base hit and 50 potency per hit over 18 seconds for a total of 350 potency. I'm not gonna hardcore math anything but its a lot closer than you would think. But yeah ast gonna beat both other jobs out if the media tour values remain as is so it almost doesn't matter anyway ><.

[QooEr]

some math

did you see the excel spreadsheet? dps is never linear, and neither whm or scholar have rotations that reset at the same time. scholars rotation resets every 360 seconds and white mage's every 600 seconds. therefore in order to be fair one must get the average pps for scholar and white mage individually, from their own rotation. not only youre neglecting the existence of prescence of mind, but your analysis of gcds doesnt even account for spell speed.


white mage's potency per minute is not 6635 at 0 spell speed. it's 7092 (and thats not even counting cleric stance)
your numbers are also tilted because scholar gets 3 extra energy drains at the beginning of the fight

its also not as simple as how you put it for strategem. youre calculating it as if crit chance was 0 on every party member and strategem suddenly brought crits into the equation. an increase of 3.3 vs 0 is going to be way more impactful than an increase of 0.165 vs 0.1705. not only that, but youre disregarding the fact that critical hit rate (the stat) also affects how strong crits hit.

since we are approaching the beginning of the expansion, i used data from the beginning of heavensward. quoting myself,
After looking at gordias fflogs and 3.1 bis stats, and with help from some of dervy’s formulas, the average crit chance back then was approximately 0.165 and average crit damage around 1.565. The formula for the impact of critical hits on dps is crit chance * crit damage + 1 - crit chance, which means crits increased rdps by 1.093225 during early patches.
With this info, we can calculate stratagems average rdps impact.
Stratagem increases the chance to crit on the boss by 20%, for 15 seconds, every 90 seconds. Therefore, average crit chance increases by (15*1.2+75)/90 as fights approach to infinity. Stratagem affects rdps as follows.
(15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance * crit damage + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance
Substitute variables and we get
(15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 * 1.565 + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 = 1.0963325 rdps increase by crits
Substract that to the increase without stratagem and we get a difference of 0.31075% rdps.
Of course, stratagem’s effectiveness will increase as we get more crit to stack. Current values for crits tend to be around 22.38% crit chance and 1.62 for crit damage, which would make stratagem a 0.46% rdps increase for the later patches of stormblood. (i am assuming stratagem is multiplicative since its a debuff on the boss and not a buff on party members.)

[Kabzy]

one ability why SCH is currently meta, it is an ability called Whispering Dawn.

Nope. Selene says hi.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

If you're using Eos, you're losing dps by not having Fey Wind, which is already a dps loss on it's own. Party wide shields might be nice, but they aren't a deal-breaker, and WHM can still single target shield at the same gcd cost as a SCH, so that's also moot.

[Mahkii]

If you're using Eos, you're losing dps by not having Fey Wind, which is already a dps loss on it's own. Party wide shields might be nice, but they aren't a deal-breaker, and WHM can still single target shield at the same gcd cost as a SCH, so that's also moot.

Its your personal loss, but not the group's. For the group, this is a gain.

oh i know. but for example, in a10s speedkills scholars usually use whispering dawn like 20 seconds into the fight and that way both healers can have 100% cleric stance uptime during the first phase. however, asylum has the same effect. in fact, i have a run of a10s where both me and a white mage have 97 percentile parses without any food or pots.

if 4.0 whm existed right now, a9s speedruns would bring a whm since itd have way better aoe damage, as well as assize which both heals and deals damage, and also asylum which would alleviate heals from the ast.


as i see it, dps optimization for healers is really dependent on the fight, which means that while scholar's tools could be amazing in one fight, white mage might be able to do about the same in some fights while bringing more dps.

you can stack medii and asp helios too btw

You would be stacking medii 2 and asp helios at the cost of shields, but I respect that you know what you're talking about.