DEV Request: Please do not make DRK a 1-2-3 like PLD was

[Reynhart]

When you get down to it a Paladin's core DpS rotation is spamming the RA combo unless you need to reapply GB which you just replace a RA with.
When you get down to it a Warrior's core DpS rotation is spamming the SP combo unless you need to reapply SE which you just replace a SP with.
When you get down to it a Dark Knight's core DpS rotation is spamming the SE combo unless unless you have excess MP so that you augment SS or SE with DA.

Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW by never asking "Do I need HP ?"

[Ultimatecalibur]

Crit is multiplicative...

DA only adds 140 potency. 140 becomes 210 when it crits with at 1.5 multiplier. The gain on DA during a Crit is the same no matter which of SS, SE or BS gets augmented. 140 potency will get an addition 70 potency when it crits no matter if the base attack is 250, 280 or 380.

Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW.

Losing complexity is not a bad thing when that complexity is unnecessary, meaningless or just interferes with the ability to play. The complexity change allows for more focus on complexity with MP and Blood Gauge management.

[Fernosaur]

With the possibility of buffing Syphon and Eater, you actually have more buttons to press during your regular combo rotation if you have excess MP. I really don't understand these complaints...

Also, you can't really compare SB DRK to ARR PLD, because ARR PLD literally could only do ONE combo without any sort of variants. DRK has two native combos and four different variants for one of those.

I understand why it looks like you'll be pressing the same buttons over and over, but does it really make a difference if the functionality is basically the same as it is in HW? Also, the only difference is that you'll be pressing 1-2-3 or 1-2-(X)3, instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-(x)3.

[saber_alter]

Losing complexity is not a bad thing when that complexity is unnecessary, meaningless or just interferes with the ability to play. The complexity change allows for more focus on complexity with MP and Blood Gauge management.

MP and blood gauge management will likely be trivial all things considered, especially due to the fact that DS no longer drains MP and every single not AOE gcd costing relatively the same amount as Dark arts.

dumbing down is nice when necessary, and dark knight needed some dumbing down. what i'm worried however is that they dumbed down dark knight TOO MUCH.

I understand why it looks like you'll be pressing the same buttons over and over, but does it really make a difference if the functionality is basically the same as it is in HW? Also, the only difference is that you'll be pressing 1-2-3 or 1-2-(X)3, instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-(x)3.

coming from someone who played as a paladin for almost all of 2.x, a single combo rotation is mind-numbingly boring. DRK already is slightly a step up by having two rather than one, but it's still SE when not building aggro. dark arts doesn't add much to that unfortunately.

[MoarLegion]

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

[Crater]

2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

2 is better if Trick Attack, Balance, Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, Embolden, Brotherhood (and so on, I'm probably missing a couple) will be up on the second GCD of your combo, and down by the third.
2 is also better if you're sitting at a high enough MP level that Syphon Strike will bring you past 100% of your MP bar if you don't blow some of your MP away on Dark Arts.

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

[Reynhart]

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

If any of those buffs are active during only a couple GCD, then you don't spend DA on SS, but on Bloodspiller, or preemptively on BN to cram a second Bloodspiller in.
And it's pretty early to judge the value of Grit and self-healing when we have no idea how much damage we'll receive in Stormblood.

[FallenWings]

As far as I'm aware. Dark Arts has more or less become a MP costing, 2 second recast oGCD that deals 140 potency to single targets or 90 to all targets in a line. :/ (Does 350 every 60 seconds/140 in a small AoE around you for 50 Blood/Reduce Additional Magic Damage/Heals for 100% Damage dealt if you want to get all technical about it :O)

They're not really combo variations because they virtually do the same thing with the same button presses. It's still ultimately press 1 - 2 -3 and spam R when you have mana.

[Crater]

If any of those buffs are active during only a couple GCD, then you don't spend DA on SS, but on Bloodspiller, or preemptively on BN to cram a second Bloodspiller in.

But those buffs aren't up during "only a couple GCDs". If you've got room for four GCDs during a Trick Attack, your first one (and ideally your second as well) will be Bloodspiller. If you aren't otherwise in the middle of a combo, your next two GCDs are Hard Slash, and then Syphon Strike.

The only GCD where you can't use DA to get extra damage is Hard Slash. If not for the second of the four variations on DRK's SB combo, that would not be possible, and your ability to use Dark Arts efficiently would be drastically reduced.

And it's pretty early to judge the value of Grit and self-healing when we have no idea how much damage we'll receive in Stormblood.

Not really. The logic is pretty simple: If you're taking enough damage that the self-targeted, 20% version of Blackest Night will be broken, then using that is a far more effective use of your MP than the healing you get from upgrading a Souleater with DA. If you aren't taking enough damage to break Blackest Night, then a couple hundred potency of healing (when subjected to a tank's potency:damage ratio and further penalized with Grit) is inconsequential.

On that note, I misspoke in my previous post: You aren't getting a 420 potency heal by using Dark Arts; you're getting a 140 potency heal from using Dark Arts, because you would be getting 280 of that potency from Souleater even without it. 140 potency with a 20% Grit damage penalty is... Somewhere between 'negligible' and 'actively harmful'. It's just an absolute nonfactor. They could delete the effect from the game and it would probably improve things, because then people would be less tempted to use DA inefficiently just to get more useless heals.

They're not really combo variations because they virtually do the same thing with the same button presses. It's still ultimately press 1 - 2 -3 and spam R when you have mana.

They're as much of a combo variation as DRK's current Delirium/Souleater setup is, and as much of a combo variation as PLD's "Royal Authority, occasionally refresh Goring Blade" 1-2-3 is, or as much of a combo variation as WAR's "Storm's Path, occasionally refresh Storm's Eye" 1-2-3 will be. It's a 4-button combo system, the same as every other tank, and if anything, DRK's combos are still the more complex of the three, because the frequency and flexibility of DA is much greater than only really ever hitting your fourth button once every 3-4 combos. The loss of the Delirium attack animation has more of a tangible effect on the game than any of the actual mechanical implications.

I mean you can pull back the curtain on the game and reveal that every tank class has just been doing nothing but hitting 1-2-3 forever with very little variation, ever since ARR launched, and you'd be right. But by the standards that the game has set from 2.00 through 3.57, DRK's Stormblood combo system represents an uptick in complexity and variation compared to every other set of tank combos in every other previous patch the game has had.

[Xenosan]

Maybe if you ask the devs, they'll let you glamour Delirium's animation back in, like the SMN Egi-Glamours (I'd definitely glamour Scourge on to something if this happened). But functionally, it was a beneficial change on several levels.

Could I glamour Reprisal onto SE instead ;3

I have the suspicion that the new role-skill Reprisal is going to use the current cross-class Fracture animation (Same for Reprisal on PLD and WAR, recycling Fracture animation for those jobs). I've no explanation as to why, just feel that is what they're going to do..