DEV Request: Please do not make DRK a 1-2-3 like PLD was

[Crater]

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

You can make an argument that you liked specific things about DRK's combos in HW that aren't present in their SB combos, or that you think their SB combos aren't interesting, or whatever - but the meaningful variations DRK has on its combos have increased, not decreased.

Edit: Likewise, going from being able to use Scourge in between your complete combos, and being able to use Bloodspiller in between any two weaponskills, possibly consecutively, can hardly be described as a decrease in complexity or depth (it remains to be seen whether it can be fairly described as a decrease in efficacy).

[Reynhart]

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

No, it hasn't. You dont't use Delirium only when you couldn't DA-SE, because DPS is not the only focus. In heavy magic fights, the INT down from Delirium is useful.

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

2) is a bad option, because 2) and 3) have the exact same average, and if you're hoping for a crit on one WS, it's better to use the highest GCD potency available, which is Soul Eater. And the choice between all those comboes are the amount of MP you can spend, like past SE combo. Basically, you lost one degree of complexity from not having to maintain the additionnal effect of delirium.

To be clear, the issue is not really the number of combos, it's the number of purpose.
WAR will use BB for enmity, Eye for Slashing debuff and Path from buiding Beast.
PLD will use RoH for enmity, GB for DoT and RA for instant DPS
DRK will use PS for enmity and every other combo for pure DPS

[Crater]

As I said:

You can make an argument that you liked specific things about DRK's combos in HW that aren't present in their SB combos, or that you think their SB combos aren't interesting, or whatever - but the meaningful variations DRK has on its combos have increased, not decreased.

No, it hasn't. You dont't use Delirium only when you couldn't DA-SE, because DPS is not the only focus. In heavy magic fights, the INT down from Delirium is useful.

And this is exactly the sort of thing I was attempting to head off at the pass with that remark. There are still only two viable combo options for HW DRK, compared to four for SB DRK, regardless of how many use cases there are for each of those combos, or how many reasons you can come up with to use one over another.

However, for this point specifically, this is mostly placing importance on something that never actually was important. Past the first 2-3 combos of a fight (and past the first 2-3 combos after any significant length of disengagement from the boss), Delirium's INT debuff has pretty much full uptime. It isn't adding significant depth to the class, because it's basically always there when you need it, whether you make a special effort to keep it there or not. And there are startlingly few places where it was important to have it up during the first 2-3 combos of a fight (or the first 2-3 combos after a disengagement) - That's important basically once per raid tier, and even then only really important during very early progression (eg: Week 1-3, it was very important to have Delirium up on Alexander Prime after his Time Stop, for the Mega Holy. Past that, not so much, and that was really the only time it ever made a difference in all of Creator).

2) is a bad option, because 2) and 3) have the exact same average, and if you're hoping for a crit on one WS, it's better to use the highest GCD potency available, which is Soul Eater.

This is faulty math.

Assuming a 150% damage critical hit, the effective potency of a Syphon Strike is 375, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Syphon Strike is 585 - Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

Assuming the same, the effective potency of a critical Souleater is 420, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Souleater is 630 - Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

Just for fun, the effective potency of a critical Bloodspiller is 570, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Bloodspiller is 780 - Again, Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

You can "hope" all you want that your one-crit-of-three lands on Souleater, as you should - but the chances of a crit are equal between all weaponskills, your chances of using Dark Arts on the weaponskill that lands a critical hit is equal no matter which you use it on, and the damage you gain by guessing correctly and using DA on the one that crits is equal, no matter which weaponskill you use it on. There is no bias, as far as Dark Arts is concerned, toward any one weapon skill or another, in general.

If, on the other hand, Trick Attack, or Balance, or Battle Litany, or Chain Stratagem, or Brotherhood, or any other team buff, is going to wear off after your Syphon Strike but before your Souleater, a Dark Arts on Syphon Strike will inherit all of those bonuses. Likewise, if team buffs go up after Syphon Strike but before Souleater, those bonuses will be reflected in your Dark Arts only if you use it for Souleater, and if team buffs are up through your entire combo but will end afterward, then stacking them together and using Dark Arts consecutively on both will maximize the damage gained from your DA. Or, for that matter, even if there aren't team buffs in play, being able to use DA on Syphon Strike can allow you to avoid capping out on MP, while simultaneously leaving you with a much smaller window in which you'll be missing the MP from your previous DA, allowing you to more easily take advantage of Blood Weapon's MP gains without having to dump MP like you're bailing out a leaky rowboat just to avoid capping out.

The ability to more easily take advantage of buffs, and to fit many more Dark Arts-boosted attacks inside of those windows, is where SB DRK is going to be getting much of its complexity.

There are certainly some concerns about the Stormblood incarnation of DRK as we understand it from the information we have - but overall class and combo complexity is emphatically not one of those concerns, as both of them are objectively a marked improvement over their Heavensward counterparts.

[Reynhart]

Paladin has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (FB -> SB -> RoH) and a dps combo (FB -> RB -> GB/RA) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Warrior has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SS -> BB) and a "dps" combo (HS -> Maim -> SE/SP) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Dark Knight has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SpS -> PS) and a dps combo (HS -> SyS -> SE) both modifiable based on current needs.

You can't count GB/RA or SE/SP as "one modifiable" combo because their difference has a huge impact on how you plan your rotation.
On the other hand DRK has basically no rotation at all. They just spam the same combo over and over.

There are still only two viable combo options for HW DRK, compared to four for SB DRK, regardless of how many use cases there are for each of those combos, or how many reasons you can come up with to use one over another.

Counting Dark Arts increase as a whole new combo is like saying that PLD have new combos because they can FoF-GB, FoF-RA,FoF-RoH
Or worse, that WAR has a ridiculous number of combos depending on wether or not they use Berserk, or have Maim and/or Storm's Eye running.

This is faulty math.

No, it's not. If you count the average potency, you'll end up higher with HS -> non-crit-SS -> crit-DA-SE than HS -> crit-DA-SS -> non-crit-SE.

[Ultimatecalibur]

You can't count GB/RA or SE/SP as "one modifiable" combo because their difference has a huge impact on how you plan your rotation.
On the other hand DRK has basically no rotation at all. They just spam the same combo over and over.

When you get down to it a Paladin's core DpS rotation is spamming the RA combo unless you need to reapply GB which you just replace a RA with.
When you get down to it a Warrior's core DpS rotation is spamming the SP combo unless you need to reapply SE which you just replace a SP with.
When you get down to it a Dark Knight's core DpS rotation is spamming the SE combo unless unless you have excess MP so that you augment SS or SE with DA.

No, it's not. If you count the average potency, you'll end up higher with HS -> non-crit-SS -> crit-DA-SE than HS -> crit-DA-SS -> non-crit-SE.

That is faulty math because the gain from a crit DA will be the same no matter which attack crit. Dark arts is additive not multiplicative.

[Reynhart]

When you get down to it a Paladin's core DpS rotation is spamming the RA combo unless you need to reapply GB which you just replace a RA with.
When you get down to it a Warrior's core DpS rotation is spamming the SP combo unless you need to reapply SE which you just replace a SP with.
When you get down to it a Dark Knight's core DpS rotation is spamming the SE combo unless unless you have excess MP so that you augment SS or SE with DA.

Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW by never asking "Do I need HP ?"

[Ultimatecalibur]

Crit is multiplicative...

DA only adds 140 potency. 140 becomes 210 when it crits with at 1.5 multiplier. The gain on DA during a Crit is the same no matter which of SS, SE or BS gets augmented. 140 potency will get an addition 70 potency when it crits no matter if the base attack is 250, 280 or 380.

Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW.

Losing complexity is not a bad thing when that complexity is unnecessary, meaningless or just interferes with the ability to play. The complexity change allows for more focus on complexity with MP and Blood Gauge management.

[MoarLegion]

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

[Crater]

2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

2 is better if Trick Attack, Balance, Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, Embolden, Brotherhood (and so on, I'm probably missing a couple) will be up on the second GCD of your combo, and down by the third.
2 is also better if you're sitting at a high enough MP level that Syphon Strike will bring you past 100% of your MP bar if you don't blow some of your MP away on Dark Arts.

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

[Reynhart]

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

If any of those buffs are active during only a couple GCD, then you don't spend DA on SS, but on Bloodspiller, or preemptively on BN to cram a second Bloodspiller in.
And it's pretty early to judge the value of Grit and self-healing when we have no idea how much damage we'll receive in Stormblood.