Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

[Suda]

Here are the facts:

The game creator gave an opinion and not a rule

Thus the playerbase can accept or deny the opinion.


People acting like Word of God is an absolute. kek.

It's pretty entertaining though. /popcorn

[Welsper59]

Time is a person's most valuable commodity. Most people don't like having it wasted.

True, but it doesn't mean people shouldn't take accountability for their failure to understand the situations they put themselves in. If you're going to DF without a pre-made, you're running the risk of encountering "trouble." Time is a subjective argument and one that really shouldn't be expressed unless an extreme variance occurs (20min content that becomes 60min). The reason I say that is because you run into a common hypocrisy with that argument, in that gear differences also determine time wasted. You justify the idea that someone would rightfully be able to complain/kick/whatever that people are not equipped in the best gear available to make their run faster.

Time is a commodity that is only real world relevant (as in it's a variable that also takes us out of the game). If someone knows the freeway is going to be backed up, yet also knows alternative routes exist that will probably be faster, but they still decide to take the freeway, is this person not accountable for their decisions/actions? I'd say they don't have much right to blame others for their stupidity, if it truly matters that much to them.

[Yahallo]

This thread has probably come full circle every twenty or so pages.

I'm waiting for it to hit 151 pages to make a OG pokemon joke.

[Elim]

Make sure you read those definitions and understand that by definition, you are being egotistical and deliberately misconstruing the definition of Elitist to suit your own ego.

I enjoy being considered superior. People use it as an insult but they're still admitting to my superiority so it's all good in my book!

[Anzaman]

Kicking a healer for NOT dpsing is the most deluded and MORONIC thing anyone can do and deserve to be reported for harassment.

No point wasting Customer Supports time with useless reports, we are allowed to kick people for "different playstyles".

And besides, if you find that many groups kicking you out, maybe it'd be time to improve something.

[Mature]

No, it is justified as being a difference in play style. It is like kicking a DPS for only going 1-2-3 over and over, ignoring a proper rotation or a tank for pulling every mob from beginning to end. Healer DPS is optional, but it is intended. You have the right to not DPS as a healer, but in return others have the right to kick you for not DPS'ing as a healer. If you want Healer DPS to be optional, those are the terms you must abide by.

Dpsing as a healer IS and will always be optional. Get that right in your head. I will understand kicking a healer for NOT healing , yes he is NOT doing his job as intended but for not doing something NOT mandatory is idiotic.

[Vhailor]

A simple statement to the effect that healer DPS isn't mandatory should not be the spark that ignites so much anger and ignorance.

Why not? There is a significant contingent of people who have repeatedly defended even the absurd extreme that healers shouldn't deal damage on principle alone. It's natural that any official statement addressing the issue will, therefore, spark the debate anew- because there are a lot of individuals taking patently irrational positions.

It's the same reason that Trump posting on Twitter routinely causes an uproar. As long as there are large numbers of people in the country willing to go along with his clown act, as long as he sits in the White House, even trivial comments will spark loud debate. I agree that Yoshi P's comment wasn't big enough to have created a debate in and of itself, but the debate has been here for awhile now. It serving as a spark seems quite logical.

Of course, I consider it willful ignorance when people start describing players who do not DPS to their standards as lazy or bad. There are so many factors that go into whether a given player feels comfortable throwing more or less DPS into the mix. To me it's extremely small minded to start making arbitrary decisions about other players based on whether they DPS enough when they are healing.

This is misleading and wrongheaded. Nobody has been arguing that Healer classes should meet some artificial level of DPS. Nobody.

People have, however, pushed back (quite rightly) against the idea that healers should only be expected to heal. Any rational examination of this issue concludes that, for the vast bulk of content, there is some amount of damage that any active healer will be able to put out. That line varies on the healer, on their party, and on the content - but it is almost always a non-zero quantity. Stunningly, people continue to argue this point, effectively backing the idea that Healer classes are permitted to be lazy.

Frankly, since a healer is balancing their gear level, their MP level, the speed of the run, the size of the pulls, the ability of the tank to withstand damage and their own level of comfort in terms of where they want to keep other players health levels, they are the only ones in a position to determine how much DPS is appropriate for them do throw into the mix. Anyone else attempting to impose their standard on healers is unaware of all those details as well as the circumstances in any given fight. Which is why people need to just stop this stupidity about healer DPS and measure instances based on simple criteria like, did we clear it? Did we wipe? How many people fell and were raised?

I disagree here. People should be judged on performance, not on how well they did the "bare minimum" - as is the case with anything else in life. That means making an effort; it means giving a sh*t about playing your job well. For Healer classes, outside of very specific fights or spectacularly bad tanks / damage dealers, that means dealing some amount of damage. The variables you mentioned dictate how much damage will be dealt, sure, but they don't serve as an effective excuse for not dealing any.

Personally, as a tank I judge instances based on how long trash lasts, how many times do I see boss mechanics cycle around, and did we clear. In all honesty when I see an instance taking significantly longer than normal or boss mechanics cycling an unusual number of times; it's not the healer I am looking at it's the DPS. Let's be honest, if the DPS is sorely lacking then it's either a playing ability, playing effort or gear issue. All 3 of those tend to also impact the amount of healing required by the DPS player(s), and due to the length of the fights, it will also result in more healing needed for the tank and healer themselves. Net result, healer has less time and MP to throw into DPS. Is that something to blame the healer for? Nope. Is it something to blame the DPS for? Nope - unless they are obviously being deliberate in their inability to play or gear.

I agree with this statement, but it's also hard not to notice a healer sitting at full MP doing nothing but tossing out unnecessary heals on top of their HoT abilities. That demonstrates a lack of skill and a lack of effort, and people are rightly criticized for it. It usually won't make the difference between a wipe and success, but it does make a noticeable difference in the overall speed and smoothness of a run.

Too many players in this game treat the game like some kind of job or chore where every second is 'money' and if you take a minute more on a dungeon than expected, it's the end of the world and everyone else is just 'terribad' because of the extra minute.

I don't get the impression that anyone's venting about how long dungeons take. That is likely the motivation for some people, but the bulk of the commentary is focused on the issue that healing requires maybe 25-30% of a person's time in most situations. As such, they either twiddle their thumbs, or contribute via damage during their idle cycles. It's a respect issue; by not dealing damage as a healer, a player is effectively saying they're allowed to be lazy while everyone else has to put forward effort. That's objectionable to many people.

Enough ranting from me. I'm just tired of all the cross role enmity that we see on display in this community and the judgemental attitudes of so very many players. This is a video game, we're meant to enjoy playing it, so perhaps we should all relax a little?

I'm a healer myself, and yet the idea of healers not dealing damage really bothers me. It places a stain on the role that I choose to play, a stain that influences how people view my job and role. I don't like that. The enmity isn't always cross-role.

As for relaxing, that's a good point - but I happen to enjoy a good debate, and I'm also bothered by incompetence or laziness. So, this is an issue that tends to rile me up a bit.

[Yahallo]

Dpsing as a healer IS and will always be optional. Get that right in your head. I will understand kicking a healer for NOT healing , yes he is NOT doing his job as intended but for not doing something NOT mandatory is idiotic.

I said it was optional, however, kicking a healer for not healing isn't idiotic. There are other people other than the healer. If they find that having a healer who doesn't DPS isn't enjoyable for them and that they would rather try to get a new healer, they have the right to do so as the play style of the group doesn't match the play style of the healer. This is resolved in a vote; if the group finds that the healer doesn't match with their play style then they are kicked, if not they stay. It is as simple as that. This has always been a part of MMO culture, people have to learn to live with it and learn that they won't always get what they want. The Pro-Healer-DPS camp won't get the Healer DPS being mandatory like that want, but the Healer No-DPS camp won't get the immunity to vote kicks that they want. It's a fair trade-off.

Healer DPS Camp:
+ Gets the ability to kick healers who only heal and not DPS.
- Must accept that it is not mandatory for healers to DPS and thus their vote kicks may not always go through as the other members of their party may feel otherwise.

Healer Only Heals Cap:
+ Gets to have DPS as an optional task
- Must accept that they can be kicked for not DPS'ing if their heal only style doesn't match with the group's overall play style.

It is a case of the one adapting to the many or leaving. It is as simple as that. No one camp gets exactly what they want.

[Keikun]

Ok, so if dps is not mandatory for healers, then i will choose as a tank to stop dpsing, if i will be far ahead in my aggro next time.
My Job as a tank is to hold aggro and lower incoming damage for me and the rest of the group.
So it is ok for you, if i will be lazy and do nothing but 1-2-3 Combo every 30 secs to hold aggro?
Why you tolerate a lazy healer, who do nothing but heal (mostly overheal) and go dance in no damage phases?
Will you tolerate the lazy tank too? I think i wouldnt tolerate that tank.

Lets see if you can do that without losing agrro =)

[DaikiKiyoshi]

Well I would say Yoshi-P's statement and this thread have done a great job of highlighting the void between dpsing healers and non dpsing healers. I must say the amount of people who defend laziness because the creator of the game does is insane. I honestly can't decide if I want to main SAM in 4.0 so that I can kick all the healers who refuse to dps because "I'm a healer and you don't pay my sub!!!" or just main healer so that I can dps and never have to worry about them.