Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

[HyoMinPark]

For me, personally, I do not understand at all how some healers can just stand around doing nothing while they wait for the tank (or a DPS) to take damage. It just seems so boring and so wasteful to me (all that unused mana). And I would be lying if I said I didn't get irritated when I see healers standing around spamming random emotes while the rest of the party is busting their butts dealing damage, especially for dungeons where there is very little healing required.

Take the majority of the Level 60/Expert dungeons, for example. Aside from a few pulls (first pull of Baelsar's Wall, Big Daddy pull in Gubal HM after the second boss, to name two), I rarely have to leave Cleric Stance to do so much as toss a regen on the tank, or throw out a Medica/Helios for party-wide damage. I spend the majority of my time in Cleric Stance DPSing, spamming Holy/Gravity, and generally speeding up the run, because healers DPSing does make the run go by faster; very rarely do I have to babysit party members, and when I have to, I generally dislike doing so. I prefer to deal damage, regardless of my role in a group: DPS, healer, or tank.

Obviously, when I roll a healer, I keep my party members alive. I know when to drop out of Cleric Stance and heal them if they end up taking a huge amount of damage, and I do not condone those healers that refuse to drop Cleric Stance at all to perform the most basic function of their role. But I do not like standing around wasting GCD after GCD just waiting for someone to take a small hit so I can cast Cure/Physick/Benefic on them. I like to always be casting. So if my party isn't taking any damage, I'm entering Cleric Stance, and tossing some DoTs and spells on the mobs/boss.

So while I can respect others' opinions, I don't really agree with the practice of spamming /dance, or jumping around the party in circles waiting for someone to die or take a hit, when a healer could be tossing out some DoTs on mobs, at the very least; you don't even have to use Cleric Stance--at least do something other than stand there and /manderville. Obviously, if a healer is new to the role, or new to the dungeon, I don't mind at all if they spend most of their time out of Cleric. Because they're unfamiliar with the setting, and probably a bit anxious about it, since they don't know what to expect. That is perfectly fine with me. But if you are decked out in Savage Alexandrian gear, fully melded, and sporting a 275 weapon, I won't say anything to you, and I won't move to Vote Dismiss you (unless you're being truly disruptive), but I will grumble at you on the other side of my screen if I see you just standing around.

It's not hard to find a balance between healing and DPSing. It just takes practice and familiarizing yourself with content, and I really wish that more healers would try to find said balance. There's nothing hard about it at all, and I'm not saying this in any sort of rude or argumentative tone. Anyone, even the most anxious of players, can become good stance dancers, and I genuinely urge everyone to at least try.



Regardless of what Yoshi P said this game's "design" was, I will still continue to contribute to DPS while I am rolling a healer--any healer: WHM, SCH, or AST.

(And, to be honest, I question if that was the true "design" of this game, considering some of the DPS checks in savage content--for example, A3S--required healers to help out just to meet the check and prevent a wipe. If the "design" was for healers to purely heal, then why design a fight with such an intense check that the only way to meet it was for healers to DPS as well?)


EDIT: While reading through this thread, I find it very funny the people posting to "just give this debate a rest already" and to "agree to disagree" continue to post and complain about how the debate isn't just ending when they say it should, or when they "tried to end it." If you want something to end, stop responding to people. And, eventually, the thread will die down, move from the first page to the second, and eventually get lost in the General Discussion subforum abyss. Continuing to reply and argue with those whom you're telling to "just give it a rest" is a little counterproductive.

Of course, debates of all kinds continue to carry on, regardless of who says they should end, and when they say they should end. I don't expect this debate to ever die, even if Yoshi P came out and said that all healers who DPS will henceforth be permabanned from the game (or visa-versa). People would still debate this topic regardless. Yoshi P may be the "savior" of FFXIV, but that doesn't make him a god, doesn't make him infallible, and that doesn't make everything he says law.

However, if you wish for people to stop arguing with you, stop replying to them, and eventually, they will.

[Velthice]

From the latest Famitsu interview, it sounds more like Yoship wants people to learn to dps.

Feel free to participate in instanced dungeons as a healer

The changes to healers seem to be more of an evolution. The changes seem to be smaller (in a good way), and I think they are getting a lot of beneficial adjustments in the form of getting rid of accuracy, changing the specification of Cleric Stance, and replacing offensive spells with higher tier ones. Was this the intent for these adjustments?

Yoshida: I recognized that folks who used healers in raids were already used to the risk involved with stance switching using Cleric Stance between DPSing and healing. I expected to perhaps see some feedback from those folks, but I'll address that later.

I understand.

Yoshida: By now, I think a feeling has developed that healers have to participate in DPSing in instanced dungeons. Even if it's just a silent pressure, it is there. Because of that feeling, there were some players who may have felt anxious about joining as a healer. For someone like me who isn't focused about clear time, I'm fine as long as we can clear it. And I'll try to take things more slowly if I see someone who might be new. However, it's been getting more and more difficult for healers, which I'm sorry about. On my personal account, I play all the roles, and I like to have the feeling that I can play through instanced dungeons on my favorite role.

Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift. (laughs)

I see.

Yoshida: That said, sometimes when I'm participating in instanced dungeons, I'll queue as tank or healer because the matchmaking is so fast, but in the case of healer, although attacking itself isn't hard, I feel that the stance switching narrows the field of players who are interested in healing. When looking at the data, even though many players have healers at the appropriate job level, they won't be participating as healer. When considering the reasons for this, it seems that there are two main ones - it's too much work, and being asked to DPS.

There are many who feel that way.

Yoshida: So we decided to calculate healers' attack magic potency based on MND. Since you no longer need Cleric Stance, you can Holy whenever you feel like it. After stunning the enemies with Swiftcast Holy, you can then catch up with heals. With this increased level of comfort, the number of people participating in instanced dungeons as healer will definitely go up.

It certainly looks like that.

Yoshida: We consider the leveling activities like instanced dungeons and end-game content like raids separately. We'd like people to be able to use healers in a more casual sense in instanced dungeons. With that in mind, we made a point of simplifying the role. On the other hand, you're really asked to push the role in end-game content. And in reality, it's likely that you'll need to look at elements besides just healing in those situations depending on your job composition and the skill level of the members. I understand very well that there are players who enjoy and have been doing well with the stance switching to attack and immediately back to healing. However, rather than changing stances back and forth, now you can use that spare moment for other role actions you might have set. I'm not saying you'll be doing a lot more things than before with the new role actions, but that will definitely be an area where players can improve.

Using Rescue to draw an ally to your location fits that description, doesn't it?

Yoshida: In the caster role actions, one is included that allows you to transfer your MP to other party members. If your party's healer isn't good with MP management, you can give them MP from a black mage, who has an unlimited pool of MP, during phases of a battle where you can't attack. Because of that, you have some leeway with MP, and you might decide to change your role actions up on healer so you remove one with an MP recovery effect and change it to something else for the situation. Also, if you have a margin with MP you can use it for further DPS. We've also made adjustments to the MP consumption for each action to because all this talk about making it easier to DPS doesn't mean anything if you don't have the MP necessary.

So you should feel comfortable throwing out one attack here and there.

Yoshida: Yeah. You'll save a lot of time and effort without turning Cleric Stance on and off. With the addition of role actions, you'll have a number of other actions you can take instead of the stance switch, so that will be one place to demonstrate your skills.

I see.

Yoshida: It's likely to be misunderstood, but making things simple and clear is not the same as making them easier. Because things will be simpler and more easily understood, differences in skills and setups will start to appear, so a healer looking to get more active in things besides just recovering HP will really shine in those areas.

While playing, I felt like it would be important not just for healers, but also for other roles to swap role actions depending on the content. Because of that, I felt that it might be useful to have a preset function to save role actions so that you can swap more easily - do you have any plans to implement that?

Yoshida: We'll wait and see on that. I really don't know how long it would take without getting into it. With the new raid strategies, etc., that pop up, I'll wait to see the feedback.

Source:
https://www.famitsu.com/news/201705/31134240.html
Transaction:
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation

[Fyce]

Yea and Dig has a similar standing to try in your list... I honestly don't see your point also plug...

You're so dense that even the sharpest material in the universe can't even scratch you.
Screw this, I didn't sign up to argue sementics with people who can't understand simple concepts.

I'm out.

[Noata]

You're so dense that even the sharpest material in the universe can't even scratch you.
Screw this, I didn't sign up to argue sementics with people who can't understand simple concepts.

I'm out.

Your not pleased that a phrase's synonyms can be so off. I mean I was given the page... linking try means linking those words too, they according to the site have the same relevance.

No, I edited my previous post and added my intent. Somehow in this thread I definitely got triggered and started pointing out people's misuse of words. Anyways it doesn't really matter, the people who demand DPS in this thread from at least my experience represent a small amount of actual players, or if they do they shut up when in the actual dungeon and just "go through it"

[ValarianHeartbreaker]

I said it once, and I'll say it again.

The day I play a SMN (or a RDM it seems, as they'll be able to raise), and the shitty healer, who just stood there waiting for the hp bars to go slightly down while doing nothing else, asks me for a raise because he died, my answer will be "Sorry, I'm a DPS, I DPS".

[akaneakki]

In all honesty there is so many people in this thread or in game that expects lets say, tanks to use cds, dps to actually dps and the list goes on. But when it comes to themselves, they sit around barely doing anything. If you want people to do shit, they will also expect you to do the same. What is really sad is some here are actually okay with tanks not using cds on big pulls or busters and dps lets say smn not using aoe etc, because as long the dungeon is done it's done, doesn't matter if it's an hour long. This is the mindset of many in this thread, if you want the source I'll gladly quote some of them. Then you have some person saying they they will just dps and let people die because some of us ask them to contribute but instead he wants to be a troll.

[DamianFatale]

This argument is never going to end, except for In tears. This is a heated debate, with no resolution. Let it be.

[Seoulstar]

I'm amazed this actually made it to 80 pages in less than a day. Goodness..don't people have something better to do than argue over the same topic for hours upon hours? Like really, i'm being super serious now about this. Pointless rambling and hijacking any thread for the sake of arguing over a stupid topic that should have ended long ago. Seriously, get over it. Accept that not everyone is going to play the game how you want them to play it. There are millions of people playing this game for goodness sake. To think everyone will play to their max potential is absurd, it's illogical. Just leave it be already.

[JunseiKei]

In all honesty there is so many people in this thread or in game that expects lets say, tanks to use cds, dps to actually dps and the list goes on. But when it comes to themselves, they sit around barely doing anything. If you want people to do shit, they will also expect you to do the same. What is really sad is some here are actually okay with tanks not using cds on big pulls or busters and dps lets say smn not using aoe etc, because as long the dungeon is done it's done, doesn't matter if it's an hour long. This is the mindset of many in this thread, if you want the source I'll gladly quote some of them. Then you have some person saying they they will just dps and let people die because some of us ask them to contribute but instead he wants to be a troll.

At the same token of your argument,
-Tanks do large pulls, but do not pop CDs are OK because they did large pulls and only really inconveniences the healer. Especially true if they still try to DPS, still.
-There are many DPS, usually melee, that only do single target attacks, even with 8+ enemies. Generally still tolerated since they DPS single targets that are bigger threats quickly while the other DPS [and healer] do AoE DPS.

They might not be 'sitting around, barely doing anything,' but that does not mean they are contributing correctly, either. Both of those instances are just as bad as the healer choosing to not DPS, or in some cases, even worse.

Either or, this entire thread is full of silliness.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

This is the mindset of many in this thread, if you want the source I'll gladly quote some of them. [/B]

Can you? ouo

I'm amazed this actually made it to 80 pages in less than a day. Goodness..don't people have something better to do than argue over the same topic for hours upon hours? Like really, i'm being super serious now about this. Pointless rambling and hijacking any thread for the sake of arguing over a stupid topic that should have ended long ago. Seriously, get over it. Accept that not everyone is going to play the game how you want them to play it. There are millions of people playing this game for goodness sake. To think everyone will play to their max potential is absurd, it's illogical. Just leave it be already.

Eh. It's two weeks before expansion. I'm not that surprised TBH.

WOW. I'm laughing. Somehow managed to quote someone that wasn't even on this page. Achievement unlocked?