Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

[Deheuty]

Healers are expected to dps in high end content.

Off tanks are expected to dps in high end content.

I am waiting for DPS to be expected to either (i) off-heal, or (ii) off tank in high end content in specific phases of boss fights so that this expectation is equalised for all jobs. Just sayin'

[Crysten]

Like that video I posted, 95% dislikes, oh yeah real mature guys. It's an unlisted video for a reason. I expected it.

> posts a YouTube video of a 45 minute dungeon run which most players with a functioning brain complete in 20-25 minutes undergeared, and ~15 minutes if overgeared
> The video is an epitome of how not to play not just healers, but the game in general
> Video inevitably gets dislikes and should have a place in the Tales from the Duty Finder thread

Clearly the work of Internet trolls.

[KisaiTenshi]

What you don't seem to realize is that what you're arguing and what the community is saying about healer dps is the same thing. The pro-dps camp isn't asking for perfection or dps on par with a DPS job, they are asking a healer to not be idle, to be mindful of the situation and the people and adjust accordingly. In your statement, you just described an adjustment you had to make because of an undergeared, underskilled new tank, it's all situational. Great, you probably weren't idle and probably were always casting. Guess what? You have satisfied the majority of the pro-dps camp right there.

Now on the flip side, you describe that you are aware and perceptive of the group's gear and skill level and adjust your healer style to suit the needs of the group, but your video you linked earlier, you hardly did any of that. There was no risk of ripping aggro and there was no risk of the tank dying and there were many times you overhealed for no reason, sat idle, I mean if you are concerned about mana management, you didn't even use the free heals. So it truly confuses me that you say you do one thing (being able to adjust to the group and justifying why you heal only) but your video shows you do something completely different (not adjusting, not showing awareness of your heals, not even using your skills).

My argument has always been that people advocating "dps or get kicked" should stay out of the duty finder, because overwhelmingly the PUG's are not raiders. When I get raiders in the DF, they are typically worse than the worst speed-runners because they ignore the mechanics in trying to dps through them. I feel that the way I play is average on hard content and good on easy content. I'm not advocating for a "never dps" argument, because it's situational, and unless it feels like the DPS is exceptionally weak, or tank is exceptionally strong, most of that obstacle is CS alone. I've said many things to point out that the game does not require healers to DPS, has never required healers to DPS, Yoshi-P has designed the content so healers never have to DPS, and yet raiders are still insistent that the "meta" says others wise, and the meta is gospel, despite the raiders are only 2% of the players. So the raiders are presenting one extremist attitude based on activity that doesn't get questioned. They perhaps don't realize how toxic this makes them look, why would anyone want to ever play the raid content when the people who play it are being hostile to all players. I'm sure this is a self-inflected wound on the raid content.

I posted the video knowing full well certain people in the thread would think I'm bad at the game, yet the duty was completed, which is the goal. We weren't failing to learn from mechanics, and what you don't see is how much everyone but myself was joking around in the chat, mostly the BRD. I rarely chat in the party unless I'm explaining mechanics, or waiting for a replacement party member. That is not me being anti-social, that is me focusing on the combat, and nearly every combat (eg the first 5 minutes) of any dungeon typically involve figuring out how well the Tank and DPS work together, and I've been able to adapt to "speed running" tanks that use their CD's more than I'm able to adapt to raiders who ignore mechanics.

Like I can generalize the categories of parties like this:
1. Parties that are generally cool with just completion, no pressure, and everyone makes mistakes and just brushes them off
2. Parties that are speed-running, though not necessarily farming. A bad group will usually point fingers once someone dies, usually at the Tank or Healer. Mostly the Healer. They will also abandon the instance at any wipe.
3. Parties that are "raid"'ing the regular content and are basically expecting PUG's to act like Raids. These people should be using the PF, not the DF, because honestly if you are expecting a raider healer from the DF, even in Primal, you're not going to get one unless it's 5pm on a Saturday. Raider's will just kick players after the first boss because it didn't die fast enough.
4. Parties that are full of newbies (strangely enough it's always a group of newbies), like #1, but takes 2-3 times longer.
5. Parties that are full of jerks. I'm sure we've all had one, but the only one of note was Pharos Sirius, where the Tank and DPS both ultimatium'd me to kick one of them, because they hated each other, and I forget who I kicked.

I also want to note that I've never touched the PvP content in FFXIV by choice. I've hated open-world PvP in other games, I've played at least two MMORPG's that had such things, and they just people revenge-seeking, and if you thought raiders were mean, think about how many people can't lose gracefully in games. I've never seen a PvP mechanic that wasn't horrible, so that is why I've said nothing about PvP, and I've not seen anyone else mention PvP in regards to healer dps meta or heal-only healers.

[ShanaMia]

Healers are expected to dps in high end content.

Off tanks are expected to dps in high end content.

I am waiting for DPS to be expected to either (i) off-heal, or (ii) off tank in high end content in specific phases of boss fights so that this expectation is equalised for all jobs. Just sayin'

Actually, with the 4.0 changes, they're indicating a possible shift towards DPS having a more active role in mitigation/CC given how their role actions have been implemented, so there may be more expectations of them in that respect.

[Kaurie]

I posted the video knowing full well certain people in the thread would think I'm bad at the game, yet the duty was completed, which is the goal. We weren't failing to learn from mechanics, and what you don't see is how much everyone but myself was joking around in the chat, mostly the BRD.

Some people when writing an exam aim for an A, others aim for a pass.

[AlphaFox]

Healers are expected to dps in high end content.

Off tanks are expected to dps in high end content.

I am waiting for DPS to be expected to either (i) off-heal, or (ii) off tank in high end content in specific phases of boss fights so that this expectation is equalised for all jobs. Just sayin'

It could, saw a Redmage video where at 70 his Vercure was 5k non-crit, which with about 22k HP I think he was at sounds like a decent heal.

[Arkdra]

Healers are expected to dps in high end content.

Off tanks are expected to dps in high end content.

I am waiting for DPS to be expected to either (i) off-heal, or (ii) off tank in high end content in specific phases of boss fights so that this expectation is equalised for all jobs. Just sayin'

I tank my low level dungeons if the actual tank is bad, does that count?

Protip; I want equalization in investment in insuring the group finishes their dungeon in a timely fashion. If I could cross class regen as a Ninja I would happily never run a ldr with a real healer ever again because they would be a waste of a party slot.

[Aramina]

Some people when writing an exam aim for an A, others aim for a pass.

This hits the nail on the head.

[Zojha]

Actually, with the 4.0 changes, they're indicating a possible shift towards DPS having a more active role in mitigation/CC given how their role actions have been implemented, so there may be more expectations of them in that respect.

It's probably gonna be one-off:"CC now or die" situations, but yup. That's likely the idea.

In general, though, you won't see DPS responsibilities shift much, because the value of mitigation and healing is capped by the incoming damage, whereas the value of outgoing damage is not. That means in order for DPS to participate in off-healing/tanking, they would not only need the respective tools to do so in the first place, but the content also needs to put out so much damage, that tanks and healers cannot cope with it alone by design. Seems unlikely to ever happen.

[Deheuty]

Actually, with the 4.0 changes, they're indicating a possible shift towards DPS having a more active role in mitigation/CC given how their role actions have been implemented, so there may be more expectations of them in that respect.

You are right - in a sense, some dps already have dmg mitigation abilities like BLM's manawall. I am thinking about these roles being as expected at as high a level as healers and tanks.

For example, a bunch of adds flood the endgame boss platform and there is a ticking dmg (aided by a benign entity) that kills them within a fixed time frame. During this fixed time frame, all dpsers have to split to be either an off tank or an off healer and tank these groups of adds while the main healers and tanks handle the boss.

Make it so such that this type of endgame mechanics become regular and the norm.