Thread: How should Monk 4.0 have been done?

Originally Posted by Shayuki

Elixir Field is in my opinion easily the most fun Monk skill in HW / SB, and what does it do? 220 potency AoE, nothing else. It doesn't need to be extremely complicated and there does not need to be a massive trade off of losing GL3 or lowering weaponskill recast speed. As a simple example, you could make an oGCD ability that's relatively weak but has a damage bonus when used during Opo-Opo form, for instance. Didn't get it? No big deal, you just dealt less damage. Got it? Nice, more damage, feels good! An oGCD ability to make Twin Snakes or Dragon Kick have double the duration for the next attack? Nice, planning required, a rotation change required, a DPS increase and no trade off elsewhere if you get it right. Another example: oGCD ability that says "If your next weaponskill is a critical hit, instantly gain 3 Chakra". Planning required(Save for Bootshine, don't waste Chakra), no rotational trade offs, still impactful when you get it right.

Not actually disagreeing, but just playing Devil's Advocate here...

Elixir Field could as easily be wrapped into base potencies, though. Apart from needing every other to fall into IR, and the same CD-holding concepts that go into every AoE oGCD (which, I do find enjoyable and significant; I can't fake otherwise), it simply devalues Perfect Balance, Howling Fist, and one's difference between AoE and ST rotations very slightly, as this would otherwise fall under HF, AotD, RB, and PB-RB spam alone.

The other parts though vary somewhere between Power Surge and Life Surge. Note that the prior was trimmed as it would only be used with one paired ability, and the latter probably survives only because there's still compromise available between maximization of its bonus potency and of its uptime (though this will likely be removed with the 26% increase to Full Thrust damage). Put another way, the more tools you have that ought to be paired with one particular skill, the more your balance depends on these pairs that do not actually require thought but merely tracking. As we no will no longer have ways to time our cycles through stance-less skills in SB, we will have no way to actually change or rotation in-combat to meet these new abilities. As such, they become bloat just as much as Power Surge was. In effect, you still just have Bootshine, but with that Bootshine (as if passively) gaining additional effect at x interval. The double duration on Dragon Kick would never be used in a boss fight because the opportunity gain of more Bootshines so outweighs that of True Strike unless at an effective crit chance of 85+% and willing to subject oneself to an additional layer of RNG or of 100% if not. Etc., etc. Choices, unless balanced, aren't choices, but rather just bloat.

Again, this is just Devil's Advocacy, and I picked that portion only because the rest I just can't argue with.

I'll supply though that Form Shift, Meditation, Forbidden Chakra, Purification, and Tornado Kick were flawed more in iteration (their specifics) than their base concept. A GL-consuming skill like Tornado Kick could have fell into a sort of use that was neither obligatory by situation or rotation and would have been perfected only under apt awareness, but with little damage loss from failing that or preferring one's own style of play. But it wasn't. The details weren't there; the support wasn't there. And so it remains just a bandaid for the opportunity costs of downtime on a Monk (which, paired with up to 15 seconds of downtime use via Chakra, isn't bad number-wise, but still feels kinda shitty). Does that mean though that GL itself is flawed? It certainly doesn't feel perfect, but on the whole I would guess there are more aspects of it than not that more of us like than dislike. My point is any additions really do need near surgical precision in order to fall into "interesting" gameplay, which I would argue has to be impactful, adaptable, and non-obligatory (within specific pairings or frequencies, i.e. no more than any other combat tool). Should one skimp on the details, the intention doesn't stand a chance.
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EDIT (for clarification):

Originally Posted by Shayuki

"Elixir Field could as easily be wrapped into base potencies"? No, because it's an AoE.

Working backwards from an resultant AoE value over time, one could manipulate potencies in all other forms of AoE—Rockbreaker, Howling Fist, and Arm of the Destroyer—to closely mimic the same AoE dynamics as with the inclusion of Elixir Field. This is simple spreadsheet math. The issues are how closely, when that AoE potential is deposited (being otherwise OP for x-to-y level range), and how it affects internal balance. (Buffing AotD changes its value relative to DK and Bootshine, and not necessarily for the rotationally better; buffing Rockbreaker enhances PB-RB spam; buffing HF potency makes it your AoE feel very singularly centered or all-or-nil while reducing HF cooldown other than by a with a CM equal to IR's feels balances front-loaded DPS over long-term sustain due to eventual desync.) [This is the exact thing that so infuriates me about a lot of the AoE changes on SMN, SCH, and DRG, for instance.] In other words, while something's bound to have been irreversibly changed when trying to trim previously added abilities, it's rarely so pervasive as general (AoE/ST/cleave) output unless the designer intends to change any of those things at the same time, and is merely using the removal as an excuse to do so (e.g. DRK cleave or SMN AoE sustain).

Originally Posted by Shayuki

And regardless, that's like saying that everything could be easily wrapped into basic attacks, where you just click the opponent and deal optimal DPS.

Yup. Well, beyond the point that creates strategic/tactical decisions, at least. Which is why while I respect SE's desire to trim bloat, I feel like as long as button efficiency is a matter of potential enjoyable gameplay or gameplay decisions per button, what they've trimmed gameplay-wise has cost as much as the reduced button count as gained. And then they made SB Monk / shat the bed.

Originally Posted by Shayuki

My suggestion with buff duration extension is NOT like Life Surge or Power Surge simply because by doubling the duration of the buff, you would CHANGE YOUR ROTATION and would have to take that into account. It'd not just be a "press this to make this deal more damage". You'd have to actively take advantage of it by not rebuffing yourself with Twin Snakes when you usually would but instead would perform another True Strike, which is something I really would like in a job I'm playing. Gaining an advantage, but having to think a little(It's not exactly complicated) to achieve it. And importantly, again, not making you give up something to do so, and not making the skill situational and useless 90% of the time.

To be clear I meant it in the same sense that the decision never varies except across SS plateaus, not that it doesn't change rotation, and that something is always given, even if it's as stupidly simple as base potency. When you add a trick that can provide up to x value for z total DPS, assuming balance, your z total DPS is reduced whenever you fail to maximize x value. The more of these things added, the more skill gap increases. I happen to like skill gap, but only where there are actual adaptive decisions to be made, rather than remembering to hit a particular keystroke at a particular interval.

Originally Posted by Shayuki

Speaking of Tornado Kick, by the way, IIRC they didn't want a Tornado Kick that's worth using on cooldown and worth having to rebuild Greased Lightning because it would feel bad having to slowly build the Greased Lightning back up. But what do you know, Riddle of Fire feels EXACTLY like it. Except it feels worse, and for a longer time.

At least they're likely not aware of the irony?

Originally Posted by Shayuki

Thanks for mostly agreeing, but I'll still try to drive these points home.

Thank you for doing so. /bow

/abandoning Devil mask