Thread: How should Monk 4.0 have been done?

i will be honest fist of wind and earth, need to be removed. they are skill in our tool that can be replaced by much more accurate skill. they can even make it a trait like we always run faster, what will be more logical since we are normally a jobs that have 0 ranged attack.

like i have said, it's a rest of the V1 like was haymaker. they are skill that was junk and had no reason to be keept. outside the lack of idea on how make the monk evolve. soo far the monk have a huge trouble, they did wanted our dps to be coming from out auto attack, that why we did get soo much boost of damage and skill that have the potency soo low. but by doing this, they have make hard to balance it, worth add anything enjoying for the player, since the dps is coming not from our action, but from the auto attack, yes we have a % of the damage that come from the skill... but the auto attack deal insane damage.

the idea i had offer have the advantage to not change this but just to make us more active. Shoulder tackle must'nt be a focus of our tool, none of the dps or melee class have soo much attention on them charge skill... why that? a charge have only one goal allows us to come back to melee...

worst when you look at the one of the samurai you find it more interesting and involving. one charge, one step back skill and if you use the ranged attack after you have synergie between the skill... brillant.
monk have the less synergy with the group and with his skill. leading to our situation.

we can try to offer them any advice, or a way to make they idea work, in the end it will be detrimental for the monk since it will not be fun nor an evolution. the 4.0 change are bad in way too many way and need to be scrapped and rework. since seriously it's not even an evolution, more a de-evolution of the jobs. less action, less fun... less all... for only get more number? no, simply no.

in the alpha and beta and even v1 we had poll for know our thought, they really need to ask monk player with a poll what we feel is needed instead to try to guess what we are saying or wanting. they are disconnected of our main concern...
about the situation of the monk in HW they are directly responsible of this.
the dragoon was already more interesting in term of raid utility because of the piercing debuff and his damage, they did decide to throws another insane group buff while giving nothing to compete to the monk. brotherhood is not what we have asked for, we have asked for a synergy... since the start the reduction of defense against the blunt, piercing and slashing is the source of a loooooot of trouble. leading to a situation where some jobs are more wanted since they wil buff the raid damage.

it's not different of the elemental wheel in a sense... and they have scrap it... for the same reason for not make a jobs mandatory to a raid because of his gain of dps because of the elemental advantage, here the dragoon is prefered to the monk because of the piercing debuff... and brotherhood will solve nothing.
dragoon still have the piercing debuff (bard/mch buff of damage and probably red mage)... and the battle litany
ninja have the +10% damage takent every minute and slash debuff... (tank damage buff and sam)
monk.... have brotherhood +5% damage (only a melee range) and blunt debuff.... only use by himself!

don't need to do long study for understand the trouble.

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i will be honest fist of wind and earth, need to be removed. they are skill in our tool that can be replaced by much more accurate skill. they can even make it a trait like we always run faster, what will be more logical since we are normally a jobs that have 0 ranged attack.

They need to be rework not remove. Earth is very specific, but wind can be save if it reduce our GCD. I made some big post in the french forum with some idea, I'll try to translate them to put them here.

Originally Posted by alex4815162342

They need to be rework not remove. Earth is very specific, but wind can be save if it reduce our GCD. I made some big post in the french forum with some idea, I'll try to translate them to put them here.

If you want to fix the Fist Stances, making one also be a DPS increase isn't going to do it. If Wind's GCD increase results in a greater DPS gain than Fire's 5% outgoing potency buff, then you'll just sit in Wind all the time, and if it isn't you still just sit in Fire all the time. You'd have to take the 5% off of Fists of Fire first and then change the effects so either they all increase damage in some way (an increase in Skill Speed, Determination, and Crit Rate depending on stancethat are all balanced such to increase your damage by the exact same percentage for example), or just add that 5% damage from Fists of Fire to Twin Snakes and make Fire's effect something else.

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

If you want to fix the Fist Stances, making one also be a DPS increase isn't going to do it. If Wind's GCD increase results in a greater DPS gain than Fire's 5% outgoing potency buff, then you'll just sit in Wind all the time, and if it isn't you still just sit in Fire all the time.

So long as you're able to swap between them with low opportunity cost, those swaps become obligatory, rather than limited to one stance or another. For instance, if Fists of Wind were to grant 8% attack rate and Fists of Fire only 5% damage, and assuming one had sufficient TP, one would use Fists of Fire only for high per-execute potency GCDs (including same-global oGCD use), and Fists of Wind for the rest.

The decision-making this would cause would be based on uptime lost and your attack speed (essentially, counting modulars as your upcoming Coeurl nearest to Demolish as to make it take as long as possible before you're forced to clip or neglect a global tick, which would result in opportunity cost or lost potential tick damage), wherein the 5 potency lost from not buffing Shoulder Tackle with Fists of Fire, for instance, would be weighed against the rotational benefits of the 8% faster recast on that global allowing your DK to affect your next DK or your Demolish not to neglect a global tick. This would mean high skill-cap, but would still likely fail to interest most Monks, as far as I can guess from the three 4.0-related Monk threads.

Originally Posted by Deithwen

Unless you stack all the speedskill you can, which is not a good idea, you can't skip a DK/TS refresh. It's a DPS loss. And even if you do have enough SKS, the amount of crit and det you lose is so big it will still be inferior. Theory is nice, but numbers speak for themselves.

It's not merely theory. I use it daily.

Due to server leniency, wherein buffs are checked as a skill is released from queue, rather than at end of animation (which is when the duration is applied), the effective duration ends up a little over a half-second longer than stated. Similar to how Iron Jaws can refresh DoTs even after they've disappeared, a debuff like Dragon Kick will still apply to a skill's calculations as long as it was present when the action began, even if it falls off for the animation's duration before being reapplied. In my experience, I can lose DK/Twin on only the DK/Twin with as much as a 1.96s GCD. That's a trade of 150 potency for 29, or a net gain of 119 potency per 3 cycles.

Now, I can't guarantee that even then this would be a net DPS gain given the nearly 500 extra SS necessary, none of which will affect oGCD or AA damage, as I don't have equal item levels within SS and non-SS choices, but I can say that plateau makes a significant increase to DPS upon changing rotations, rather than clipping DK/Twin 2.2 GCDs short. Having spoken to a few top world/server Monks, they suspect that these means of increasing damage over time are not currently fully weighted for, and that, should TP issues be fixed, Skill Speed would otherwise be more viable than its given credit for.

Personally, I'd still guess that for Skill Speed to be balanced, it would need to increase attack speed (also affecting AA frequency) and all periodic damage (taking that to mean both DoTs and damage dealt by (oG)CDs), that it would have to be changed from reducing the GCD by a set amount per a hundredth-of-a-second (although this number does apparently vary beyond what decimals would entail) to reducing the remaining recast time by a specific percentage (such that it does not gradually come to scale exponentially, even if that's a far, far, far distant future), and that the TP refresh rate would have to be changed from 60 per 3s to 50 per GCD (MNK and NIN base TP costs increased to compensate).

"Originally with monks it was enough to get used to the fixed rotation, but when you enter a new battle with the associated uncertainty, you need to make quick decisions about things like whether to use Chakra or whether to keep going with the DPS rotation. Your DPS will grow if you excel at that, so I think monk should be rather interesting."

That quote still puzzles me. Could someone explain it to me?

How on earth do you need to make a decision between using Chakra or going with the DPS rotation? Isn't Forbidden Chakra an oGCD ability that you'd use regardless? Or does he actually think that using Meditation mid-combat is a good idea? I just feel like they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Monk, and comments like these give me the impression that I wonder if this kind of a person should be designing the job changes in the first place. So what on earth is the point of this statement and how exactly is a rotation consisting entirely of 1-2-3s "rather interesting", anyway?


As for what they should have done with Monk, heck, why not give Monks something that doesn't require them to do or give up something else? Tornado Kick? Lose Greased Lightning. Riddle of Fire? Makes weaponskill recast worse. Forbidden Chakra(Meditation)? Requires charging during jump / losing GCD. Greased Lightning? The amount of abilities Monks have that are designed purely to maintain Greased Lightning "Sometimes" is completely absurd. It's not like it's anything special, just a maintenance buff that allows Monk to be on par with the other classes. How about giving Monk something that just is GOOD, without massive trade offs or conditionals every single time? Why waste half of Monk's available additional skill slots on abilities just to make Greased Lightning less trash, and instead make it not be a pain and give them a lot of new, fun skills to use?