Red Mage AoE

[Arkenne]

That's why I used past tense.

Whops, my bad. Well, sadly both of those are gated behind the same resource which is kinda troublesome to build up anyway so it may not be THAT different.

[Brinstar]

Well at least they have spammable (potentially so long as their mana holda out) AoE. Would love to have that in Stormblood as SMN.

You almost make it sound like SMNs don't have the strongest and the most efficient AoE in the game. I'm not really sure what more than that anyone could want xD

[NovaLevossida]

Whops, my bad. Well, sadly both of those are gated behind the same resource which is kinda troublesome to build up anyway so it may not be THAT different.

Nah, no problem. I'll get around to trying 4.0 NIN at some point.

[Tide]

Back to aoe, if there are mp issues i can think of some options, if just aoe, then easy to drop the mp cost. Other options could be to make dualcast cause the casted spell to be free or half mp or something. If just fixing aoe mp issues then maybe make enhanced scatter free or reduced mp. I dont think single target mp will be an issue, at least based on the simulator i was able to go for a long time by using lucid dream and kept around 75%mp. I think adding a mp regen to holy and maybe a short damage buff to flare would be an interesting mechanic that encourages true control and mastery of their mana balance. Another mp solution is to make impact cause a mp regen effect.

[saber_alter]

While i kinda find it unfortunate that RDM lacks the AOE strength that either SMN or BLM have, I'm still looking forward to it. hopefully RMD's single target damage is more than enough to make up for it's lack of a viable AOE rotation.

[Arkenne]

While i kinda find it unfortunate that RDM lacks the AOE strength that either SMN or BLM have, I'm still looking forward to it. hopefully RMD's single target damage is more than enough to make up for it's lack of a viable AOE rotation.

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

[Tide]

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

They just place magic walls when they think you are cheating the system. *cough*Amdapor Keep*Cough* :P

[saber_alter]

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

Those changes were already in game for BLM. they just weren't tacked on to summoner until now.

[Arkenne]

until now.

And they are now, just like in a couple other jobs too.

[Phoenicia]

AoE potency being boring in itself is not a problem unless the AoE is too weak. BLM had boring AoE rotaitons but it was strong enough that you wouldn't be doing it for 3 hours in 1 dungeon run. MNK AoE was fun and it's almost as strong as BLM. SMN AoE rotation was both satisfying and strong. There was a reason people hated NIN in AoE (it was low and resource intensive for no reason). Heck, the ONLY reason I hate PLD is the lack of AoE.

Now come in SB SAM gets all the fun with build up AoE that is also TOO POWERFUL. And then we there's RDM that seems to be the new NIN.

They seem to be trying to move the game slightly away from the "just pull big and just AoE spam" problem that plagues dungeons at the moment, which will upset people who want to just speed through them, but will make it so that it's more reasonable to play through the dungeon normally and still have a semi-comparable clear time, which will keep people from getting quite as upset at parties that don't pull big.

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

The reason of "just pull big and just AoE spam" isn't really the power of AoE (if you did not have 2 casters the group's AoE is considerably "crappy"), it's the fact that the dungeon design itself leads to it.

1- The problem that isn't a problem: Resource Efficiency.

A CD is a CD. An ability that spends 120 TP spends 120 TP. When those abilities are AoE, you want to hit as many targets as possible to justify the resource. If my 200 potency/minute AOE ability is best used when I hit 70 mobs instead of 1 within that minute. If I spend 10 GCDs of 120 TP on mobs, I'd rather it hits 2 packs instead of 1 otherwise I would have to "wait" for TP between the same packs. A tank's damage reduction CD reduces more damage when used against 2 packs instead of 1.... etc.

2- The problem that can be fixed: Trash mobs are boring, have no mechanics to them nor do they anything more than "trash damage".

All a tank has to do is chain a couple of defensives until the bulk dies as long as the group has the DPS to trim some of the mobs within the duration. I've had groups where things start dying before Shadow Wall (10seconds) even wears off and any meaningful damage starts to matter.

The second problem should NOT be fixed by nerfing tanks or AoE DPS. Don't give me any "roundabout" ways of fixing this. It should be fixed by putting ACTUAL incentives of not pulling an entire dungeon all the way to boss. If trash stays weak as it is, and as long as AoEing x number of mobs is better than single target, we will pack mobs until we break the x number. Even if all of our AoEs is 50 potency.

Let's compare this to WoW dungeons, some "trash" mobs enrage, others AoE stun, some mind control a party member (healer!) or even do tank busters. So as long as those dangerous enemies live, you don't want another one of them in the pull. Some dungeons have more dangerous trash than the bosses themselves and that's where some big (5 and 10 minute) cooldowns are used.

These two games approach dungeons in a complete opposite way. I think a happy medium would be MUCH better.

What would upset me isn't the inability to speed run a dungeon, because people WILL speed run dungeons. So think of it this way: In HW, I could kill 7 mobs in just under a minute. In SB, I can't kill the SAME 7 mobs (because I'm running synch'd level 60 which will be a thing) in 3 minutes because of how heavily they nerfed my AoE... I'm still gonna AoE the packs, it just will take so much longer. SE should focus more into making their dungeons' trash mobs less monotone and boring if they want to stop the "speedrunning plague".

Some may argue it is hard to fix that because as you creep into power you start "powering through", but at that point FFXIV has new dungeons. This is one of this game's strongest points, NEW dungeons (and content) every 3 months or so.

Also, do keep in mind that Dualcast means that for every spell you cast, the next one won't have a cast time, so it will be a lot faster of casting that one AoE than it appears, so you can't judge potency for RDM quite the same as you can other classes......

This doesn't even matter. The difference between a cast ability and a no cast ability is when the damage happens in relation to the GCD.

Cast = Damage happens at the end of GCD (or just more in case of BLM) and interrupted casts means wasted GCD. Also no window for auto attacking and/or oGCD weaving..
No cast = damage happens at the start of the GCD and opens space for oGCD usage and auto attacks.

From a balance perspective: Cast is a more "risky" mechanic and should have some of form of reward. But that's all.

So, 50 content? Not very powerful AoE. 60 Content, over the course of a Dungeon? RDM's AoE isn't terrible, especially when you factor that, like Summoner, AoE Resource more or less maintains between fights. 70 Content? All mages fall off in comparison to melee. (Summoner gets one really bursty phase during Bahamut summon, but most AoE needs die too quickly to make full use of that thus far, maybe that will change?)

Again, speculatively, all the pieces seem to be there with good thought behind them. Just need to see how it actually plays firsthand.

This is a problem: Melee are always ahead in single target. I understand it being okay because of up-time issues. But now they creep into being ahead in AoE AND also take half our utility (They took Virus's physical portion from us in Feint for example), might as well we all abandon casters and just play melee.

Those changes were already in game for BLM. they just weren't tacked on to summoner until now.

Bane already had the fall off. In ARR it only spread to 3. In HW it already had 50% fall off after the 3rd target.

SE could be nerfing Bane more because of cheese strats such A9 where boss takes less damage while faust is up? SMN and SCH could put up super DoTs (buffed and extended) on Faust and Bane them onto Refurbisher where it would tick for its full damage on it despite the 90% damage reduction. This nerf won't hurt SMN much because it's getting new AoE abilities and less ramp-up. But it will definitely kill off SCH aoe.