Red Mage AoE

[Brinstar]

I would like to preface this post by stating I am more than sold on the RDM job design... That being said, it almost looks like their AoE capabilities is a bit of an afterthought. As an example, the only AoE spell a RDM can use between level 18 and 52 is Scatter.

Now, this doesn't really mean anything at higher levels (Moulinet is learned at 52, and Contre Sixte at 56), but everytime you get synced to 50 and bellow, Scatter will be our only option -- a measly 100 potency spell that builds some black and white mana. That is less than ANY other dps job in the game; even less than NIN and MCH. Now, saying that SE should carefully design every new job around level 50 is a bit much, but I wonder how much thought they put into the fun-factor of jobs around those levels. We all know the 50 roulette isn't going anywhere, and getting thrown down there as a RDM, to a group that wants to clear efficiently with AoE pulls, does not sound like a lot of fun.

[Blueyes]

I do agree that the AoE damage of Red Mage looks underwhelming. Not even necessarily in terms of damage output, but the simple fact that it looks boring when all Red Mage can do is spam the same spell over and over. All other DPS jobs have at least two sources of AoE damage by level 50. Even at higher levels when Moulinet and Contre Sixte become available, Red Mage will still spend a large portion of their time casting the same spell they've always been casting for AoE damage. While other jobs may also have boring AoE combat, I wouldn't say that means it's okay for Red Mage to be boring when there are simple ways to improve the experience.

I have a few wishes for Red Mage in that regard. First and foremost, Tether should be a caster action shared across Red Mage, Black Mage, and Summoner. Each of those jobs already have their own form of AoE bind, but its use is highly situational which makes it perfect as a caster action. From there, Tether as a Red Mage action can be replaced by a new AoE red magic spell with higher damage than Scatter and a 5 second cast time. (This new AoE spell should be learned at a higher level than Tether which would bump down the level of a few other spells.) Mechanics would change so that Red Mage would consistently alternate between Scatter and this new AoE spell, using Dualcast to mitigate the cast time much in the same manner as Verthunder and Veraero.

That by itself would help a lot, but preferably I would also like to see a change to Verflare and Verholy so that they deal AoE damage, scaling down if necessary. I would then like for it to be possible for Enchanted Moulinet to satisfy the proc requirement (alongside Redoublement) so that Verflare and Verholy can be cast at consistent intervals during large engagements, adding more "oomph" and flashiness to a job that's all about flair.

Like I said, this isn't even as much about Red Mage having a low AoE damage output. I would like these changes for the simple sake of making their AoE mechanics more dynamic and interesting.

[Semmi]

The low output and simple AoE rotation are definitely problems, but my concern is their MP sustainability. RDM, at least from the live letter and media event builds, can't even sustain themselves even in a single target situation. This problem is magnified during AoE, since Scatter costs add up quickly and there's not really any way to recover it outside of Lucid Dream, which restores 6720 MP at level 70 (960 per tick) on a 2 minute cooldown.

[MidnightTundra]

Kinda wish VerBlizzard and VerWater were spells to be used in an aoe rotation leading up to Enhanced Moulinet use. From the JP tooltips, enhanced scatter giving the extra Mana isn't even 100%. It's another random proc at 25%. The way it is now is pretty terrible in both output and "fun". I doubt they'll fix this but RDM's aoe rotation is very poorly thought out imo.

Also, Red Mage has good mana sustain in a single target scenario. A couple of guys mathed out its rotation (they even have a simulator up!), it goes MP neutral in single target.

Link to RDM Sim (Courtesy of Tylian Foxfire of Exodus): Here it is!

[Rawrz]

You won't really be doing anything but Scatter until after 50. At 50 you'll be doing Scatter->Enhanced Scatter until dead and as the mobs trickle, decide if single target potency of an instant Aero/thunder (in combination with scatter, creating dualcast) is greater. IF 2, use single target rotation. IF 3, stick with scatter + Aero/thunder. IF 4 or more, Scatter + Scatter. The positive side is that youll have full Black and White mana for the upcoming boss, since you won't consume it AOEing at this level. After you get Moulinet, you'll be trying to 30/45 (3 sets of scatters~15 secs/4.5 sets of scatters, so you can either finish them off with a single enhanced moulinet or manafiction and use enhanced Moulinet two or three times in succession. God knows the AOE DPS you must be carrying to use a 100 potency skill 9 times and a 200 potency skill 3 times. Probably have a Scholar in your Dungeon run, instead of a WHM or AST.

[Kryzen]

RDM AoE I feel is... ok at best. 100 potency aoe is definitely on the lower side (not the lowest) when comparing to other classes.. SAM, MCH, etc. I think the base damage should be raised a small amount, maybe 120? Also Moulinet is pretty lack luster for a resource dump. 200 potency for every 30/30 mana? Essentially in 3x GCD we can do a total of 600 dps. This is pretty weak compared to many other classes capabilities in regards to resource expenditures. I would love to see Moulinet raised to 300 at 30/30, so 900 over 3 GCD but that may be too high? Possibly 250? Overall we still wouldnt be the highest AoE by any means but it would be in a good spot. Just my thoughts.

[Hyrist]

Not sure what they should do, if anything about RDM AoE. Keep in mind that not only is Dualcast a factor in this, but there's also no noted damage falloff in either case, so that has to be factored into the current meta in which most high damage AoEs do have that falloff to worry over. I also wouldn't be leaning on potency numbers from anything short of the actual patch notes a those will be adjusted up until the last minute. Then there's the OGCDs to consider later up the line.

As far as the hugely toted 'MP issue'. Ignoring the possibility of native MP tools lost in the tooltip, it should be noted that RDM has about a Melee's level of resource falloff in ideal up-time circumstances Which, ironically, is a good argument against Spell Speed in their build, but not hamstringing the job as simulations have been showing. Not even factoring downtime or human error (clipping, evasion, etc.). However I do expect AoE to be costly to MP pool for RDM, as it seems they are using that Melee standard resource maintenance.

Aside from numbers tweaks here and there I don't see a fundamental problem with the build idea - quick cast, low potency AoEs with no damage fall offs and consistent mana buildup, but at the cost of sustainability long term. I do think numbers need to be refined across the board but that's every job.

[Brinstar]

It's not so much that I mind the overall AoE design of the job: the whole build up a ressource and charge into melee to spend it seems like a natural fit for the job. It's all about that level 50 mark. I think it's really strange that Moulinet isn't learned at level 50 (or earlier) for example. I don't so much mind spamming Scatter in Brayflox and Aurum Vale, as those are dungeons I don't do too often, but only having that option in Amdapor Keep or Wanderer's Palace (Hard) is... ugh.

Another option would be for Scatter to actually do something a bit more interesting, like make your next Veraero or Verthunder do it's damage in AoE with half the potency for example. It's not so much about raw power, but more about having a nicer flow the the job.

All in all I don't really mind RDM being the weakest of the casters in terms of AoE, I just wish it looked more fun and interesting than it does currently :'(

[ZhaneX]

Speaking of AoE, anyone curious about RDM's Limit Break? As a Caster it must be an AoE-type, but I wonder what form it will take? Perhaps that huge Light-Blast that Alisaie used in 3.4? How would that work compared to the others though, which are targeted AoEs? Maybe have it include a leap in the animation like DRG?

[Xyrn86]

Speaking of AoE, anyone curious about RDM's Limit Break? As a Caster it must be an AoE-type, but I wonder what form it will take? Perhaps that huge Light-Blast that Alisaie used in 3.4? How would that work compared to the others though, which are targeted AoEs? Maybe have it include a leap in the animation like DRG?

Been wondering this for a bit now. Im down with what you mentioned, but at the same time Id love to see it be something that merges the Holy and Flare. Now sadly I'm not the best at coming up with names but something simple such as "Holy Flare" or something like that. Of course Id also love it if Redmage's L3 Limit Break was Ultima or Meltdown.