Please Consider Making MP/TP Refreshes Native to Phys. Ranged

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

If it's not too late, please reconsider making Tactician and Refresh native to BRD/MCH skillsets. As these support abilities were mainstays of both jobs, it would be a limitation to the freedom of choosing role specific actions, since those are an almost necessary pick.

[KaiSunstrider]

I dont know that it is necessarily required. TP cost were adjusted for certain classes, goad is now a cross class phys dps ability that can be brought by all melee dps, Casters now have mana swap which can be used on CD by a BLM and sparingly by the others, AST still has mp cards.

I think we believe that the refreshes are required based on current meta and balancing. You may only need to take it in progression or niche situations. IMO is its far from a we are forced to thing. You get to choose 5. You will rarely ever take the bind, heavy, or swiftsong (cant be used in combat anyways). So there's only about 7 that get rotated depending on fight and most fights wont require a silence and stun. Really you are choosing between MP/TP refresh, a personal heal, and a tank CD. In most cases you'll just not have second wind if you feel that you "have to bring both refreshes".

Also, its not as if we are used to having "choice" in picking cross role abilites atm. They are all pretty cookie cutter.

[Antwan]

I'd need a better argument to agree with this one. There are hardly any situations in which I can see you needing to use TP refresh when you have melee jobs in the party that can bring goad. Same with casters and Mana Shift. Also when it comes to MP loss as a healer you have access to Ethers, something that I don't see many healers bringing with them in their toolkit. As started by an earlier poster we really don't need to have MP or TP refreshes all the time, so I don't see a problem with it being a role skill.

[Shurrikhan]

Considerations altogether:
1. MP/TP Songs no longer have DPS cost.
2. MP/TP Songs may now be forgone via the inferior Mana Shift and Goad caster/melee role skills, but each would require multiple inferior carriers for each instance by which the Songs would be necessary and were skipped.
3. Whereas in progression Protect will be necessary for one healer, and Esuna for another if not both, and Largesse, Lucid Dreaming, Surecast, and Swiftcast for both (Eye for an Eye or Cleric falling next in priority), and Diversion, Invigorate, Feint are obvious choices followed by either Ranged coverage through Goad or Healer coverage through Second Wind or Bloodbath, Ranged jobs only really stand to gain a redundant Bind, Heavy, Silence, or Stun by dropping Tactician or Refresh. If raid designs follow similarly to of late, none of those Ranged alternatives will be of use.

While I, too, would prefer native versions for a sense of uniqueness, I'd have to point out that as tiny an option as they are, they are at least still an option (like most other roles, only as optional as the cross-roles were before, but now with a few obligatorily swapped out per fight instead of seeing broad use).

[Gamer3427]

Seems a bit pointless to me. Outside of the party using a ton of AoEs or healers not managing their MP well during long boss fights, or occasionally having to refill a tank after a big chain pull, I rarely have cause to use the MP/TP regen as is as MCH, and I use them a lot more than most MCHs/BRDs. Classes across the board have more options for restoring the party's MP and TP, as others have stated. I'll still be taking these two skills unless I specifically need to swap one out for a Stun or Silence, (which is pretty rare as well), just so that I have them as an option, but I don't feel like they're half as useful as they have been in the past. Besides, everyone having the skills would almost completely remove the need to manage MP and TP, especially in full party content, which would then lead to the question of "why do we even still have MP or TP costs aside from BLM?"

EDIT: I did misread the title of this thread when I posted my comment, and misunderstood its intent, but most of my comment still stands valid. Not going to edit out my mistakes though, since I feel it's better to let things stand as you initially have them, rather than try to cover it up by removing it.....

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I did overlook how that utility was effectively introduced to the other jobs (in different forms) as well. Still, this would be operating on the idea that other jobs less used to providing that kind of support will pick up the skills. Only time will tell on that one, and I'm certainly willing to take that chance at least once

[Fyce]

[Yes]Second Wind: Self heal
[Yes]Tactician: TP regen
[Yes]Refresh: MP regen
[Yes]Invigorate: TP restoration
[Yes]Palisade: Physical damage reduction on party member

[No]Peloton: Movement speed outside combat
[No]Head Graze: Silence
[No]Arm Graze: Stun
[No]Leg Graze: Heavy
[No]Foot Graze: Bind

For BRD, Refresh will increase the Foe Requiem duration. It's mandatory.
Tactician and Invigorate are great for AoE situations.
Tactician and Refresh cost nothing, you just press a button.
Palisade is another cooldown for your tank.
Invigorate is as good as before. Probably even more since BRD will have an atk.spd boost under a song.
Second Wind is actually the weakest of these five, which says a lot.

If you need a Graze (Stun or Silence most likely), you'll either replace Tactician (if the fight isn't AoE heavy) or Second Wind.

No need of putting Tactician/Refresh native abilities.

[Gamer3427]

Second Wind is actually the weakest of these five, which says a lot.

For MCH at least, I'd say Invigorate is the most replaceable of those skills, short of an AoE heavy situation. I use it a lot during dungeon runs for AoEs as is, but it still takes a decent bit of time to run out of TP as MCH, and it'll take even longer now that TP regeneration with Tactician doesn't require you to throw out your other turret then switch it to regen mode, which also takes away a good chunk of your AoE damage. Second Wind on the other hand is just useful to have, especially in damage heavy boss fights or solo content, and I'm particularly happy that MCH is finally getting a self heal when potions have been our only option until now. Also keep in mind that if that portion of the tooltips were correct in the release content so far, TP costs have been reduced even further for many skills. Bard's preference on Second Wind or Invigorate though, is something I can't comment on since I only ever leveled it any for cross-class purposes.....

[Pence]

Personally I find the role system shines brightest with MCH/BRD. It gives us both access to the required support skills, while giving room to improve both jobs individual playstyle.

[AxelDH]

We shouldn't be struggling for what to pick too much... The way I see it:

Must pick / Most widely useful:
- Refresh (Party MP),
- Palisade (Physical Vulnerability down)

Refresh is nice. Even if your party doesn't need MP, it'll extend the duration of Foes. Palisade is effectively an extra CD for your tank, which should come in handy in a lot of encounters.

Generally Useful:
- Tactician (Party TP)
- Invigorate (Self TP)

We'll need at least 1, but may not need both for all fights. It kind of depends on how strong Tactician is, and the types of encounters we get... will have to wait and see.

Situationally useful:
- Bind
- Heavy
- Silence
- Stun
- Second Wind

You might need to take one or two of these if certain fights require them. Stun and Second wind will probably see the most use.

No use in raids:
- Peloton (movement speed up)

Having this as a role action is actually the biggest annoyance! Because its useless in battle, I cant see it ever being allowed a slot. Which is a shame, because it was nice to be able to swift song around towns, or between dungeon pulls!