Warrior and paying for skills the other two use for free, among other thoughts

[P4X0R10N]

Onslaught ought to be free period. No rage cost pls! Take off the damage. Make it pure utility like stuns.

[FeliAiko]

It's pretty much the exact opposite of being a sheep. Reserving judgement for personal experience or experience of a known credible source is not being a sheep.

Dismissing or co-signing an argument because of the person behind it - rather than the actual merit of the point itself - is being a sheep. If you're not educated enough on WAR to agree or disagree with the topic then that's one thing, but to be like 'Oh Xeno hasn't said anything yet so you're wrong OP, your view doesn't matter' deems anything you have to say irrelevant.

[vigioX-Sun]

Been playing war since 1.0 all the way until now..its being what 6 years?,
I will keep being a war until lv 70 an will take a decision from there.
But the identity of the war is very weird right now, they took a lot of skills from us that we have since very early levels,
Bloodbath, mercy stroke since MRD class an others like flash from GLA...
I feel rubbed but I'm going to hold back until I see it myself but fell Cleves was not the only fun action of the war,
Path,mantra stance dancing selfsustain an fell cleves..but now it feels off the original class.
Instead of onslaught or whatever the skill is call(shoulder tackle for me) instead of using rage to start using MP same with stance dancing give us some use for MP(or give us our freedom back) since we don't have flash anymore an give at least bloodbath or storm path effect back, they change on the class is too much to take in , we lose so much utility an skills that are useful to us since day 1.

[dragonseth07]

It seems to me that SE is taking great pains to disincentivize stance-dancing on tanks. It definitely feelsbadman, I get that. Do they just hate it? Maybe. But, I think it's more likely that SB content is going to push MT's into tank stance way more often. Looking at the kits and whatnot, it seems like SE is turning tank stance and DPS stance into modes for MT and OT, not modes to swap into or out of as you are actively MT'ing the boss.

Will the optimized play work out that way? I'm eager to see.

[aleph_null]

It seems to me that SE is taking great pains to disincentivize stance-dancing on tanks. It definitely feelsbadman, I get that. Do they just hate it? Maybe. But, I think it's more likely that SB content is going to push MT's into tank stance way more often. Looking at the kits and whatnot, it seems like SE is turning tank stance and DPS stance into modes for MT and OT, not modes to swap into or out of as you are actively MT'ing the boss.

Will the optimized play work out that way? I'm eager to see.

Unless the new raid encounters have ridiculously high damage going on tanks, which I highly doubt considering the expansion theme seems to revolve around making the game simpler and easier, tanks in good groups will just stay in dps stance all the time, doing tank swaps and using aggro manipulation tools to take care of both mitigation and aggro. Sure the devs can make a raid that requires good tanks to stay in tank stance, but then we'll end up with another gordias tier and people will complain that it's too hard. Right now those good tanks who stay out of tank stance all the time probably still mitigate better and require less heals than average tanks who stay in tank stance most of the time, thanks to well coordinated heals/mitigations/swaps as well as high group dps allowing them to skip some mechanics/busters. If they need tank stance to clear, average groups won't stand a chance. Then you need to consider overgearing. Raids are designed to be cleared in gears 20+ ilv below the loots they give you, so you'll always gain more dps/hp/def after you clear, which will inevitably give you more freedom to stance dance (and healers will inevitably have more healing downtime which they can fill with dps spells).

Wars will go to defiance when necessary, though the threshold required to make us do so will be higher than in 3.x or even 2.x.

[Marxam]

I've main war since 2.0 launch and even tested it a bit in beta and going into 4.0 puts us in a weird situation. Onslaught I agree is quite niche for the cost it requires. Upheaval is a decent off-gcd for the same cost as Onslaught. Shake it off is nice to have, especially in PvP, though content design will determine its utility. Inner Release looks like a great ability on paper and the amount of immunity it provides is really good and the trait for Infuriate cd reduction is only a good thing. However, you can't Infuriate outside of battles, we lost bloodbath, brutal swing and even though you can block and parry from behind in 4.0 why does Raw Intuition still crit from behind.

I only really have issues with two skills but here's a couple of options to improve their viability among other QoL things.

Defiance/Deliverance

-Costs 25 beast gauge. 10 second recast.

Berserk

- Additionally restores 20% of damage dealt as hp. Duration and recast unchanged.
- Increase Berserk to 40% increase in Attack Power. Duration and recast unchanged. (Highly controversial but just throwing it out there)
- Increase direct critical hit rate by 10%. Duration and recast unchanged.

Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Butcher's Block

- All give 20 Beast gauge. Storm's Path heals for 100% of damage dealt. (much needed imo)

Infuriate trait

- Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Fell Cleave, Decimate, Onslaught, Upheaval reduces Infuriate recast timer by 5 seconds upon using the action/skill. (Much needed QoL)

Onslaught

1. Give Onslaught a stun, duration 3 seconds. 20 Gauge.
2. Increase potency to 200. 20 Gauge..
3. Reduce cost to 10 Beast gauge. Potency and cd unchanged.

Upheaval

1. Give Upheaval a stun. Gauge is unchanged.
2. Upheaval gains a 100% Direct Critical Hit at 100% hp. Gauge is unchanged. (I would love this)
3. Upheaval puts a DoT for 18 seconds. Potency 20. Potency unchanged.
4. Gain "Hungry Beast" buff. 20% of damage dealt is converted into HP. 10 seconds. Gauge and potency is unchanged.


Atm WAR's theme is of this "reckless abandon, angry berserk tank" but some of the skills hold that back with the high cost of beast gauge. I'm still excited for war in 4.0 but it still needs a few more touch ups, specifically stance switching costs, increasing all combo finishers to 20 gauge, Infuriate trait fix and the viability of Onslaught in PvE. Also I'm sure the OP hasn't seen any of the tool tips but WAR still is the only tank with a Slashing debuff.

MTQ Tool Tip video

4.0 Embargo Skill changes

[shao32]

Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Butcher's Block gauge stuff

if you do that you kill the purpose to keep all combos equal value in combat, no one go to use storm path for a small self heal only when the others offer more dps, agro and dps buffs.

[Steelbreeze]

Dismissing or co-signing an argument because of the person behind it - rather than the actual merit of the point itself - is being a sheep. If you're not educated enough on WAR to agree or disagree with the topic then that's one thing, but to be like 'Oh Xeno hasn't said anything yet so you're wrong OP, your view doesn't matter' deems anything you have to say irrelevant.

That was only half of the equation. In any event, dismissing random uninformed opinions on favor of ones developed by yourself or by a trusted figure is not being a sheep. Seeing as how none of the people in this thread have raided a couple months from now, no opinions formed currently can be reliable in the first place.

[aleph_null]

Seeing as how none of the people in this thread have raided a couple months from now, no opinions formed currently can be reliable in the first place.

I'm getting tired of this. Yes, you can form reliable opinions, theories, rotations, openers based on the data we know so far. Potencies can change, yes, so are our opinions, theories, rotations, openers. But unless they do some major rework on our core mechanics or change the potencies in a very extreme way, most of the arguments here about stance dancing cost wouldn't change much, if they even do. A lot of the great players have done some theorycrafting on their jobs. Xeno came up with the straightforward berserk rotation with 6 cleaves and a path combo and an upheaval. Thendiel came up with a new drg opener as well as theories about aligning 2nd bfb with the red botd. Aiurily did something similar with brd/mch, Laqi did it for blm/smn, and I believe many other that I don't know/remember have done so. Yes the devs can change potencies and some effects, then we can adjust the rotations too. It's not like they're gonna turn these jobs into completely different things, scrapping everything they showed in the live letter.

[Marxam]

if you do that you kill the purpose to keep all combos equal value in combat, no one go to use storm path for a small self heal only when the others offer more dps, agro and dps buffs.

The point is to have all 3 combos in rotation. As it is currently Storm's Path has priority over all other combos because it give 20 gauge not to mention the self heal, since we lost Bloodbath, will most likely be more important now than ever. If all three combo finishers give 20 gauge then there is more flexibility in the rotation instead of SE combo once then SP combo till slashing/SE debuff refresh. Having an enmity, heal and slashing buff combo all give 30 gauge all together can only be a good thing for WAR.