Thread: Yes, 4.0 Dragoon is TOO simple

This is my first post ever since joining FF14 way back in the 2.0 beta, and practically never leaving since.

That is how concerned I am about dragoon, my first and most beloved job, will become WAY too simple in 4.0. Not only that, its killing the variety of combat avenues we can take as a job.

During 2.x the reason I stuck with dragoon were practically the same reasons as stated by Vaiolette in her thread: the aesthetics of the job, the lore dating back to Kain and continued through Freya, and the ability to play that dream out. Those made for, and still continue to be, the basis for my decision to play this job over all the other amazing ones. That being said, 2.x dragoon was a straight up simple affair in battle. Start with debuff and dot gcd combo, weave ogcd buffs in, phlebotomize dot, then do standard thrust combo with the better potency. Jumps when available. Repeat over, and over, and over, and oooooooverrrrrrr....

People who werent dragoons at heart complained about how boring dragoon was to level due to its few options and repetitive nature. Those who didnt stick with it, didnt get to learn and experience a few of its more hidden intricacies. There were, even back then, CHOICES you could make during your rotation to spice life up. Find yourself in melee with a boss casting a large melee range attack that forced all other melee to back off, only to run back in again? If you decided ahead of time to do it, you could do a sweet back flip with elusive, then close that gap immediately with spineshatter, or dragonfire. Not only was that viable, it looked badass. It made me feel badass. It made me feel like a dragoon. Maybe saving spineshatter as a more mobility oriented ability would make min maxers roll their eyes, but it was through 2.x to 3.x a viable option ( especially since bosses stop being affected by stuns so much after 2.x). The dps drop from that one ability wouldnt hurt that much, and I would argue as hectic as heavenwards trials became it may have even helped keep your numbers higher in the long run. The point is both casual and hardcore could approach it their own way.

So we have this simple class. Its got a lot of heart in its style. But its very simple in the over all picture to play. This became glaringly so when I started to level other jobs as well. And then along comes 3.0.....

A new ACTUAL resource MANAGEMENT aspect is added.

A new proct based REACTIONARY system is added with the choice of two 4th tier combos you must watch and learn to anticipate.

The new 4th tier has positional requirements to maximize its potency.

An new ogcd on a 10 sec timer that brings aoe, whos upkeep and usage is what actually makes it a resource management.

I was absolutely salivating. It was EVERYTHING the job needed! Three new aspects to learn and management during combat for a class that was a brain dead easy affair to play, even if it did look sweet. Now dragoon had the style, heart, and substance to compete with other jobs. I understand it might have been difficult for some to learn, as Vaiolette mentions it took her a while to get a good understanding of it, but the process was hella fun. As it was for myself. I still had my choice of using spineshatter for full on opener style dps, or as a movement tool later in the fights. I still had everything dragoon had BEFORE, but with new engaging mechanics. It was like I was dating the person I love for one shallow reason, and then finding they had WAAAAAY more personality and life as well! There was nothing the other jobs could do anymore to seduce me away from my main. Even after leveling the other jobs months after as a way to get more of those great stories, dragoon was still strong.

Now, lets analyze the 4.0 upcoming dragoon.

And before anyone says we havent had time to play it, understand almost 4 years of playing this job brings a thorough basis for understanding nuisances hinted to come.

1) There is no room for choice. Spineshatter and Jump are the ONLY abilities that bestow dive ready, which gives you mirage dive, which gives you eyes. You need 4 before getting into Life of the Dragon (lofd) which means in order to get into that state the most often, your definitive goal now, you need to hit those the moment they appear now each and every time. There isnt even a "should I wait a new more seconds to pop power surge to maximize jump" anymore. Theres no reason to not be jumping asap, even during lofd as they give eyes during this time. I see this as both a cool mechanic, yes, but at the cost of making meaning choices as to WHEN to use these abilities, and HOW or WHY to use them. Its cemented. Get the eyes, use the jumps, get lofd back asap. There is NO choice.

2) Gierskogul *turns around, stops speaking for a tearful moment to mourn his beloved, and then turns back to the camera* is no longer a resource management tool which rewards you battle potency for efficient management of its bofd reduction. There is NO resource management aspect if you ask me. NOTHING reduces bofd anymore. Its just a buff to keep at 30 seconds, a supremely easy affair as nothing consumes it, and you have two abilities that build it which will now be available to you 100% of the time.

3) The reactionary element of spinning thrust and fang and claw are gone. They are still positional, thankfully at the very least, but you dont have to care anymore which comes along because they are both going to be active at once. Just use the one on the side of the target youre on, then move to the other side. Theres your choice. Youre standing at the flank, would you like to spend time running to the back to do wheeling thrust because the animation is cool? Hells no you youre going to use fang, then move to the rear for wheeling. Not really a choice honestly, just flexibility as it does definitely fix that constant issue we find ourselves in where boss mechanics force us so far from that potency maximizing side. Its got pros and cons, though I honestly would only view it as pros if I didnt feel we were slowing getting marched down a very strict rotation based job now.

4) We were a strict rotation based job before, we got ogcds to play with on a short timer which felt totally different from EVERY job and broke up some of that rotation, and now its getting taken away and placed on another 35 second ogcd. We had to choose when to use it as there was that management aspect behind it. It wasnt a hit the button hit the button hit the button every time its up kind of thing. It was a thoughtful decision. Now we get that 10 sec ogcd, but only during lofd, and now it really seriously is a hit the button hit the button hit the button thing because it doesnt have any resource management tied to it at all. Nostrom is a junkie fix for all those dragoons in Gierskoghul withdraw lol, but its give it to us a reward for following this new strict rotation.

Look, I love this job. I do think it will still be fun, yes. Its just shaping up to be a few steps back to 2.x no choice, strict rotation kind of fun. And that fun was a more shallow, aesthetics based kind of fun. A lot of choices have been removed from the job. A lot of it is now a "one way only to use the abilities properly" kind of thing. The heavenswards dragoon story was about learning to bring the hero of light's own personal style and experience to the job, to evolve it through their own skill. This was oddly reflected with the freedom we had to choose to use these new abilities ourselves in battle. Its our style, and there were some strict rotations to follow, but there was also freedom outside of it which tied back into it. It was, in my opinion, a perfect flowing system. Stormblood seems to tamp down that freedom, and brings us back to the "do it THIS way" days of 2.0.

So to end, heres a some suggestions to maybe help with this, as I dont WANT to change the new face of dragoon, I like how it looks a lot. I just want to keep meaningful choice and freedom in my main. They arent perfect, they are just suggestions and im sure people will have better ones. I really hope the dragoon community speaks up before launch, and maybe we can get the devs to think about implementing some in future updates? They showed how they were listening in 2.x with the hotfixes. Heres some:

1) To free up choice in the building of eyes and the usage of our 3 offensive jumps, add the ability to build eyes to dragonfire dive. There are tooooooons of ways this could work. Maybe you gain one eye for each enemy hit up to the 4 max. And before you say it would be op think about it: if you opened with bofd and dragonfired 4 mobs, then geirskoghuled into lofd to use nostrom right away, youd be going into a less than 15 second lofd, which is less than youd want as you really want to be in it for the full 30 seconds. If you are attackin a boss, thats only 1 eye. And dragonfire is on a 2 minute cd, so it cant be spammed for mobbing all the time. However, you would have the CHOICE to do it then, or wait for a full rotation to get that 30 seconds before diving down for those 4 eyes in a mobbing situation, which then frees up the usage of spineshatter to move around or dps, and makes you have to think about maybe saving those jumps for lofd instead to start building it back up as soon as you can once lofd drops. So now dragonfire isnt just a "use it in a boss opener, or save it for a mobbing situation" only, as theres more nuance and making hitting that button a more meaning choice. Hell, if used this way it would help dragoons get to lofd just a little quicker on a boss fight, while not making the whole situation op.

2) The new dragon sight has a supremely short range. With positionals in each job, unless you are hitting another dragoon, the chance of you having to move away to maximize the potency of skills on a boss isnt just high, its almost absolute. SOMEONES going to have to lose if you want to keep your 10% dmg, and their 5% up. This might be fixed with the new True North ability, but again thats another forced choice. Instead, what if when you moved away from the target, you were given a small window to meet back up? Once you move away more than 6 yalms, you have 3 seconds to get back in space or Dragon Sight breaks. They could make it visually easy to tell when this is happening too: i.e. as the targets move away, a tether appears that shakes the longer youre away from your partner. It could be translated in vibrations in a gamepad. Or two dragon eye icons appear above the targets that are open, and once you move away the start to close, and if they close boom it drops off. Keep your buff and debuff icons up too where they always are sure, but make it visually easy to tell. This wouldnt remove the challenge of the new ability which I find appealing, but it would make it USABLE in reality while keeping its challenging nature intact.

3) Like Vaiolette suggested, if you dont change anything then atleast make Nostrom and Gierskoghul still remove the 15 seconds from bofd and lofd so our meaningful resource management choices are still there. Dont just make it a stack bofd, then do 30 seconds of lofd game. That just seems mindless to an experience dragoon. Hell, im sure even people who disagree with me about everything ive said will still admit that if you see a dragoon losing bofd in a fight now, there is one and only one word that will come to mind at once: scrub. HOW do you lose that if your in battle now? It just shouldnt happen, which means if its thaaaaat easy to maintain, why not just make the damn thing a static passive?? Blue glows for everyone! Whoooooooo

Thats it kids. Im still looking forward to stormblood. Theres so much great stuff coming and man I cannot wait!!!! But think about what weve said devs. This is 4 years of living the dream talking to you here.

PS I had to post a new thread because apparently theres a character limit I had no idea about

I get what you are saying but the class being dumbed down is literally happening to every class. SE mentioned they wanted to add in new abilities while still making it easier for players to play the classes and, hopefully, limit the difference in performance of players on similar jobs. And, sadly, the best way to do that is to do stuff like make BotD much more sustainable and making fang/wheeling more accessible. I feel like you and I have similar opinions on dragoon and what made them fun too. But I'm choosing to look at the positives. Which is elusive jump FINALLY got its cooldown reduced, dragonfire dive FINALLY got buffed, and we can actually do tons of aoe damage now. We do have a couple, unique utilities added too with dragon sight and goad. With that said, I get what you are saying about the challenge of mastering dragoon being removed. But I think the job is still in a really good place and will be a sought after job in top tier raiding.

Originally Posted by SwarleyMcSwarls

But I'm choosing to look at the positives. Which is elusive jump FINALLY got its cooldown reduced, dragonfire dive FINALLY got buffed, and we can actually do tons of aoe damage now.

Oh man, were totally on the same wave length! When I saw the reduction especially to elusive that made me suuuuuuper happy. At times I feel like a supreme nerd waiting for that ONE perfect chance to leap out with style from an aoe. Now theres just gonna be way more of those moments. Also the E Honda style hundred strikes with the lance for aoe situations is another thing im looking forward to as well. Its because of things like that Im looking forward to the expansion overwhelmingly and hope the post doesnt come across as a complaint fest. The intent is to participate with feedback to the devs about the job I most care about!

As an omni-melee (Monk>DRG>NIN), I completely agree, but I also just want to throw out there—it's not unique. Most skillful DPS mechanics have been gutted in some way.

The Monk's three-stance-cycles have turned, in effect, from a mechanic into a two skills. Since there are no longer any stance-less skills, it cannot actually be controlled during uptime in order to influence rotation. Now the mechanic may as well be a part of Perfect Balance tooltip alone, as far as uptime is concerned, or Form Shift's when approaching downtime.

Fester now deals at most as much damage as Painflare, for which one has the added bonus of a non-tapering AoE effect, no ramp up, and no debuff attachment delay.

Machinist no longer needs to be concerned about adding ammo at the appropriate times as not to waste shots. All non-combo weaponskills have been removed, and ammo is now consumed by oGCDs, which means that it too, like everything else (apart from WF) after losing CD synergy, is popped immediately upon CD refresh.

Bard now has access to its most integral mechanic, RoB, only during Mage's Ballad. It too has lost any sense of buff multiplicity, stance-dancing, and situationally prioritized oGCD weaving.

Dark Knight now has nearly the rotational equivalent of PLD 2.x gameplay. Its new Blood resource amounts to little more than the previous mana balancing if it were simply less fluid a resource.

Warrior's most unique bonus, immediate and entirely free (in one direction) stance swapping, has been diminished by way of 50% gauge reduction, perhaps as alternative to giving such enjoyable gameplay to any of the other tanks.

*Sigh*

The last time such happened, I left the MMO for two expansions. I just hope, however unrealistically, that there's going to something refreshing enough on the content side as to offset the diminished combat, so that it'll at least be worth staying a couple months.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Machinist no longer needs to be concerned about adding ammo at the appropriate times as not to waste shots. All non-combo weaponskills have been removed, and ammo is now consumed by oGCDs, which means that it too, like everything else (apart from WF) after losing CD synergy, is popped immediately upon CD refresh.

Ammo consumes GCDs still, not oGCDs. There are still non-combo weaponskills, and some new added. I don't think it's dumbed down that much for this job at least, since it's pretty different.
Since the discussion is regarding DRG, I do agree it will be lot easier when SB comes. Oh well, we will know more with certainty in a week or so.

1. You only used power surge with jump one with it one without there was no "choice" about this.
2. outside of certain fights and lower skill speed builds you used gerik anytime when blood was over 21 seconds period there was no managing it per say
3. how is this even a complaint as a melee you stand at the edge of the flank and rear always to minimize movement besides we were given plenty of notification on which we were getting not sure why people complanied about it to begin with but hey this way makes sense so why not do it.
4. Yes we are a strict class rotation wise that has not changed in the slightest the only thing that changed is where its strict now good dragoons will be able to get more life time and the ones who aren't wont