Tank synergy other than slashing!

[Ashur]

First statement: I haven't raided since coil, since alex doesnt interest me, and i'm just going off what i've tanked casually and read on the forums. I'm hoping this is a fun change to the 2 tank parties that may see some use, but maybe the skills will end up being superfluous.

So, the new tank skill sets seem to have more synergy with your co-tank, I'm wondering how much of a difference this is going to make. First off, the Blackest Knight will more often than not go on the MT, whether thats the drk himself or whatever is MT at the time. we actually get to help mitigate damage on the MT with no dps loss! (if im understanding the skill correctly.) Generally I'm assuming that a PLD won't need this so much unless the raid tiers are really beating tanks into submission, so much so that a rampart shelltron alone won't stop it. It also means it may be safer for the MT to tank in tank stance, since for some of the blows they'll be having a shield every time the drk gets there in their rotation. Even having a WAR MT and drk OT is a little better for it.

PLD, seemingly the go-to MT this expansion, is getting some extra benefit from cover, since that gives the pld themselves a 20% defensive cooldown. It will also give them some MP restore with shelltron if they're not being hit. This could go on the co-tank, but also probably a nearby melee dps. It also now has intervention, so if the co-tank is currently handling some enemies or mechanics, there's a bit extra defense there too. Oh and if things are hitting much harder in sb than they otherwise would, at least a paladin can help a drk MT swapping out of grit to hit blood weapon.

And of course, Warrior still brings the tried and true slashing debuff, though its probably more likely that this is going to come from a sam or ninja in the party, especially with the high numbers of samurai that will cme from it being one of the shiny new jobs.
Apart from that i don't see much with warrior. it being in the OT slot allows it to take less damage and get more effect from upheaval...and they don't have the 10% damage down anymore? I'm not sure if the rotation is the same but at least shirk will allow a war to hand over more aggro to their MT without losing damage themselves.

So question is: How useful do you think this synergy is going to be? WAR seems a bit more focused on its own dps, and the other 2 seem to think that adding even more damage mitigation will be handy. With the fact that currently a lot of people tank outside of tank stance, will all the added mitigation with stormblood be useful? I don't raid myself but im assuming that they are going to have to increase the outgoing damage from bosses to the point where all this is necessary. Or maybe its just to give healers less to heal and more dps to do?

[Bhearil]

Problem with tanks is that right now Pala is a superb MT AND OT, while both Warrior and Drk remain on the "decent" area.

Warrior and Drk are on a pretty similar state (Warrior a bit better though), but the problem is that Pala brings so much more to the table than the other 2 tank classes that even the idea of having a Pala MT and a Pala OT is being considered despite the LB penalty

[Ashur]

Im not sure I see how Paladin is supposed to be so far ahead of all the others. It's gonna have some burst moments and some defensive tanky moments, and the rest of the time it's going to be on recovery. Drk is gonna keep some sustained damage going out, depending how much mp and blood you can keep using. I havent run the math but I can't see it being the only thing necessary

[Falar]

Uhhh......The Blackest Night is a Dark Knight skill.

[Bhearil]

Which compared with the new spell from pala Intervention that gives from 10% up to 22.5% mitigation if the OT uses Rampart or Sentinel is kinda meh. Even the 10% mitigation version is worth more than the around 5k shield that a Drk can put on others with AF3 gear

[Ultimatecalibur]

since that gives the pld themselves a 20% defensive cooldown.

It seems that that trait only effects damage directed at the covered target not at the Paladin.

Which compared with the new spell from pala Intervention that gives from 10% up to 22.5% mitigation if the OT uses Rampart or Sentinel is kinda meh. Even the 10% mitigation version is worth more than the around 5k shield that a Drk can put on others with AF3 gear

For Intervention to be better than a 4k Blackest Night (10% a i290 Dark Knight's 41k hp) it requires the attack to deal 40k unmitigated base (10%), 20k unmitigated with Rampart (20%) or ~13k with Sentinel(30%) within 6s. Considering that Casters have about 26k and melee have about 30k I'd seriously disagree with your assessment.

[Bhearil]

For Intervention to be better than a 4k Blackest Night (10% a i290 Dark Knight's 41k hp) it requires the attack to deal 40k unmitigated base (10%), 20k unmitigated with Rampart (20%) or ~13k with Sentinel(30%) within 6s. Considering that Casters have about 26k and melee have about 30k I'd seriously disagree with your assessment.

Considering that those kind of skills are only useful on hard content, since using them on normal situations (aka unneeded scenarios, like using Mantra when healers can easily top people without problems) is worth around 1 heal less, Intervention is still king. For example on a Tyrfling from Zurvan EX Intervention is far far better. We are considering uselfuness on hard content, and there Intervention scaling is much better. The scenarios where a tank can eat even 40k damage inmitigated on the span of 6 seconds are not so rare on hard content, otherwise tanks would never need to turn on tank stance/use defensive cds to mitigate certain atacks...

Im not sure I see how Paladin is supposed to be so far ahead of all the others. It's gonna have some burst moments and some defensive tanky moments, and the rest of the time it's going to be on recovery. Drk is gonna keep some sustained damage going out, depending how much mp and blood you can keep using. I havent run the math but I can't see it being the only thing necessary

Between Requiesqat 12 seconds heal and spell damage buff and the Fight or Flight buff now lasting 30 seconds with a cd of 60, not counting the damage increase on paladin combos is not hard to do the math that pala is self buffed most of the time thus boosting his already buffed damage by a lot. Right now some maths put the Drk doing 2-5% less than Warrior while Pala doing 20-25% more than Warrior xD

[Ashur]

Though we do know potencies can be changed before release. That may even out the damage gap since it's just down to lowering RA or GB. Then at least they won't be so far ahead of the curve. (if se has realised how big the difference they've created is)

[Ultimatecalibur]

For example on a Tyrfling from Zurvan EX Intervention is far far better. We are considering uselfuness on hard content, and there Intervention scaling is much better. The scenarios where a tank can eat even 40k damage inmitigated on the span of 6 seconds are not so rare on hard content, otherwise tanks would never need to turn on tank stance/use defensive cds to mitigate certain atacks...

Tyrfing is a multi-hit attack that takes longer than 6s. The Blackest Night would be better because it would mitigate a full 4.1k while Intervention would only mitigate the first couple hits which might not reach the target number unless it is buffed. You need to take 41k+ damage within 5s for an unbuffed Intervention to be better.

Single hit telegraphed psuedo-busters on dps and healers are where The Blackest Night is going to shine over Intervention as any hit over 4.1k will show the full benefit of TBN while Intervention will not have the same level of effect unless they spend Rampart or Sentinel on attacks that deal more than 1/2 a casters hp (26k at i290) or 2/3rds a melee's hp (29k). DpS are not going to be hit by attacks that will deal 140% to 157% of their max hp.

[Bhearil]

Tyrfling is a multi-hit attack that takes longer than 6s. The Blackest Night would be better because it would mitigate a full 4.1k while Intervention would only mitigate the first couple hits which might not reach the target number unless it is buffed. You need to take 41k+ damage within 5s for an unbuffed Intervention to be better.

Single hit telegraphed psuedo-busters on dps and healers are where The Blackest Night is going to shine over Intervention as any hit over 4.1k will show the full benefit of TBN while Intervention will not have the same level of effect unless they spend Rampart or Sentinel on attacks that deal more than 1/2 a casters hp (26k at i290) or 2/3rds a melee's hp (29k). DpS are not going to be hit by attacks that will deal 140% to 157% of their max hp.

No one said that it must be a single hit, since you have a 6 seconds window. Still considering that Zurvan lands a Tyrfling blow on a 0.8 seconds interval more or less, thats around 7 blows mitigated.

Dps or healers that eat telegraphed busters, just failed at mechanics, is like saying that Mantra is useful in case you have one of the two healers that doesnt know how to heal and forces the remaining one to solo heal. Saying X skill is better when you have bad players doesnt make it more viable.

Darkest Night can be used on 4 man dungeons though since you can self buff yourself for around 8k, but once again, if any other tank can do the dungeon that shield is irrelevant aside the case you get a bad healer or you derp while tanking. Same if the healer or the dps need that shield : they did something wrong on the first place.

Dont get me wrong, Darkest Night is NOT a bad skill, is just when things matter Intervention is a better option and considering its the only utility skill that Drk has, it gives a bad mouth taste