How can people justify Hraesvelgr's actions?! [spoilers]

[Transient_Shadow]

So I was on twitter and I came across someone talking about how great this dragon is. A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg. I'm honestly baffled and to be frank, really frustrated by this.

In my eyes Hraesvelgr is evil. I need an argument other than "nobody's perfect" that exonerates him from the following

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye
2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light
3. doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering
4. only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him

[Frizze]

So my interpretation. Hraesvelgr was more saddened/depressed by the humans turning on Ratatoskr then enraged as Nidhogg was. Hraes may have even felt responsible, as it was his relationship with Shiva that allowed the humans to be as close as they were. So now he's lost a sister, possibly blames himself, and his brother is dying before him. He gives up part of himself so that he doesnt have to literally watch another family member die. Nidhogg never trusted the humans to begin with, and having now been betrayed and basically murdered he isnt ever really going to listen to reason. Depression potentially leads Hraes to withdraw(or possibly the calming influence of Shiva? shes long dead by now but didnt they entwine souls or something?). Does telling the rest of the story help anyone? The warrior of light still had to defeat Nidhogg, regardless of whos eye was keeping him alive. And ultimately, Hraes was mad about what happened to Rata too. Only his desire not to break a promise to Shiva kept him from assaulting Ishgard himself for all those years. And having just rewatched the pre-Sohr Kai scene... Midgardsormrs "reprimand" was merely pointing out that we hoped to to save our friend and end the whole thing, plus a reminder that the thing flying around making havoc at that point wasnt actually Nidhogg but rather a manifestation of his rage overwhelming the form of some human.

So yes, great dragon. And i mean that in the sense that its a great character. A flawed character(as most great ones are), but with a powerful story to tell and more going on beneath the surface then might first appear.

[BillyKaplan]

He's a problematic character, but there's a ways to go before saying he's evil. Yes, he never condemned it and didn't stop Nidhogg. But I think that calling him "evil" is a black-and-white way to see it, especially given that the narrative is from Ishgard's point of view, for the most part. It was Ishgard who murdered his sister and it was Ishgard who now more or less murdered his brother and it is Ishgard that later on turned his beloved Shiva into a 'heretic' and murdered anyone who tried to follow her teaching. For him to not join in the slaughter is already more than you could've asked out of him under any circumstances, and you're actually missing the important thing - he did stop. He did change his ways. He did stand up to Nidhogg and helped you. It wasn't just because 'daddy' berated him, it was because you have proven yourself as a human being and gave him hope for your race again - a race that, again, performed horrible atrocities against his.

[Draxxion]

I can't really. As a person he is going to be hard to forgive for me. In fact in the end even him giving us the power of his eye didn't really make up for the mistakes he made. But, I think that is why he is such an interesting character. He is broken. He has flaws. He made a huge mistake and handled it in such the wrong way. He will go down as perhaps one of the more interesting characters in the lore for me because he has messed up. It makes it so we can relate to him more. None of us has messed up like him, but we have all made mistakes in our lives. It is good to see that such a being that is suppose to be wiser and smarter then any of us due to his long life is just as flawed and messed up as the rest of us.

[ManuelBravo]

It's a plot with a twist. There is more to it and in order to understand teh situation a person must have an open mind. Seeing it through the eyes of Nidhogg it makes sense. Now keep in mind that Hraesvelgr's actions were influenced by Nidhoggs words and steered his emotions to corruption. Eventually his actions were brought to light as the story progressed which really kept me entertained. For me the saying, blood is thinker than water comes to mind, we have to however remember that blood only makes it easier to drown when betrayed.

[Berethos]

A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg.

While I'm baffled that some will try to justify this particular action (rather than simply understanding and discussing the character's motivations behind it, which is of course different) as if it was the right thing to do, and while I don't I don't think he can be fully exonerated from the listed actions (though as mentioned, the stepping in motivation was more complex than just being reprimanded by Midgardsormr), I don't think he's evil either.

Tragic and broken, which lead to him being one of the catalysts for the ongoing actions of Nidhogg, and thus at least partially responsible, but he's not an evil character.

[Cilia]

While I don't think Hraesvelgr's actions are justified, it's easy enough to understand why he did what he did.

He is torn between his love for his siblings (both Ratatoskr and Nidhogg were killed by Thordan and his Knights Twelve, though the latter is somewhat metaphorical) and his love and vow to Saint Shiva. This makes Hraesvelgr a very pitiable character because he doesn't know what to do about the situation - he swore never to go against mortals, but they grievously wronged him. By the time you meet Hraesvelgr he's very broken, and it's not until he gets some therapy from Alphinaud, Aymeric, Midgardsormr, and you that he's able to overcome his despair and acknowledge what Nidhogg (now little more than a vengeful phantasm possessing Estinien) is doing, and has done, is wrong, spurring him into action for the Final Steps of Faith. (A thematically appropriate name.)

Hraesvelgr is indirectly responsible for the Dragonsong War, this much is true, but like Nidhogg he was very hurt by Ishgard's betrayal - made even worse by the fact Thordan and his Knights Twelve metaphorically killed Nidhogg as well - yet unable to do anything about it because of his vow to Shiva. Though his actions are wrong, this makes him pitiable, and he does nothing to antagonize the party aside from dismiss their criticism of his saving Nidhogg's life despite knowing his brother would begin what became known as the Dragonsong War. His action aren't justified, but they are understandable.

[Theodric]

It's justified in that Hraesvelgr isn't a human living in the real world and conforming to the laws, morals and other relevant standards that are applicable to our world and culture(s). He's part of an ancient race in a fictional setting - and from his perspective he believes himself justified. Are some of his actions pretty shady in regards to both real world standards and the standards of Hydaelyn? Certainly - but it's much more nuanced than that since he wasn't acting out of pure spite, but rather grief and rage.

[Belhi]

1. To be fair, when Hraesvelgr gave Nidhogg his eye, Ratatoskr had just been killed and Nidhogg had lost his own eyes to Ratatoskr's murderers. Honestly I don't blame him for saving his brother over a group of humans who had just inflicted a massive betrayal to dragonkind. That pretty much killed his faith in mortals. As he said himself, the only reason he didn't join in revenge was the soothing influence of Shiva.

2. Hraesvelgr didn't owe us anything. We came to him asking for help. Iceheart would have been dead if not for his benevolence. There is nothing to indicate he hid the truth from his brood and honestly I suspect most of them would have approved of his decision to save his kin over a bunch of betrayers.

3. Hraesvelgr lost his faith in mortals. This was hardly the first time dragonkind had been brutally treated my mortal kind and both cases are living memory to Hraesvelgr. He wasn't going to help Nidhogg but it wasn't his responsibility to save humans from to his mind the consequences of their ancestor's actions. It wasn't his war and frankly humans didn't seem worth going to war with is brother to aid.

4. Midgarsormr didn't reprimand him. Hraesvelgr reconsidered not because he felt guilt but because the WoL wasn't fighting to kill Nidhogg. They was fighting to save Estinien. That is what made the difference. It wasn't about a 1000 year war. It was about saving a friend. Hraesvelgr respected that. That plus Iceheart's last words to him was enough to make him consider, after 1000 years, giving humans another chance. Giving Shiva's people and his brood peace.

Hraesvelgr wasn't responsible for protecting people from Nidhogg, particularly a race that had a history of bad relations with his kind. Saving his brother was perfectly fine. His brother had acted to claim justice for his murdered sister and had almost died for it. His brother became later twisted by his rage but again that wasn't Hraesvelgr's responsibility. Were mortals really worth fighting his own family for? Don't forget Midgardsormr said Ishgard's sin had earned their fate when we first met him.

[Theodric]

As an aside, part of the reason as to why Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr were so affected by Ishgard's betrayal is due to how long lived they are. We can assume that they're basically immortal - and so whilst they could have lived in peace alongside the Ishgardians they'd lost someone they cared about deeply. Not only that, but the cycle of hatred led to even more of their people being slaughtered. The primary motive, though, is that Hraesvelgr lost a sister and was basically living a life of sorrow and misery as he had also lost a brother to extreme grief and rage. Being so long lived without the individuals one cares most about in the world at one's side isn't exactly a thrilling experience. There's almost always two sides to every conflict and each believe themselves to be justified from their perspective - and often are, to some extent. In a setting such as this, it is exceptionally rare for individuals or organisations to be doing things for the sake of being as evil as possible.