Do AST really need this Buff?

[Johaandr]

No, they don't tbh
They don't need to have stronger heals than WHM.
They also don't need to have stronger shield than SCH.
Either way.. it makes no sense. They are suppose to be a hydbrid class between those two.
Only thing that makes AST different from both hlrs is their card system and stances.
A List of what they should consider to change:

-Diurnal Sect and Noct don't really need the extra 10% or 15% (whatever) extra healing potency. Remove it and have the "stance" for it's use. Diurnal only HoT. And Noctirnal only mitigation.

-mayby nerf the earthly star ground thing and also make it extend the timer for the cards. They could Remove celestial opposition.(it's use is kinda of useless but..Hey! they extend the timer).
Make the healing potency on par with whm Cure3.
-------------------------------------------------

A whm can do fine with medica and cure. So can ast with helios and benefic. Same concept in terms of healing. Now into their "roles". Obvious WHM is the pure healer and expected to better be than ast and in terms of healing power. AST got the "supporter" role to support their party members with both healings and buffs.

As for sch they r our mitigation supporter along side with fairy.. but i barely know how sch works.(sorry co-hlrs!)


I know these ideas are stupid but please get my point(if it even makes sense). SE made the bit of mistake to buff ast in terms of healing and mitigation potency and overshadow the two other healers that may not be "wanted" for a farm party or something less hardcore


sorry for my grammar.. im from eu so sorry again

[Caduagm]

The reason about noct ast has 10% more healing potency is because Scholar has the FAIRY. Now, I'm not happy with that 300% shield but the healing buff is still necessary. They took off disable and Scholar still have Whispering Down, Fey Illumination, Fey Covenant, also they got a ability that heals 480 potency per tick. Now what I don't understand is why did they buff diurnal that tbh really didn't need.

[Yamimarik]

/snip

What? this is a troll thread right? Let's pretend you're being serious for just one second....

No to everything you just spieled out!

I'm so glad people think WHM is now the ONLY HEALER with RNG attached to it, gee I wonder why I never received my full Balance only deck for my AST /s

I'll agree to ONLY one point of your post and that I'm not too happy about the getting rid of the speed increase on Diurnal Sect in favor of more healing potency (I'll personally miss my speed sect ; ; )

There is no reason to nerf something before it even comes out AND with unsure potencies atm, because SO MUCH information is so mixed up and not even finalized at the moment we are just SO UNSURE of so much. This isn't all EA/Launch yet. We really DO NOT have 100% confirmation on ANYTHING! I mean just look at the English and Japanese Diurnal Sect leaks. Both w/ two different potencies and that still might not even be the final potency to make it in the final cut!

If anyone is being greedy it's you here.

People really need to listen to Yoshi and not take any of this as gospel truth just yet, since so much information is still very contradicting and not finalized at all!

I'm not saying WHM shouldn't be looked at again either and come to some better conclusion, but trying to bring any other class down just to make yourself feel better about what is happening is not the way to go about it at all!!

[Johaandr]

Hmm not worth it. Delusional shooo.

[Yamimarik]

/snip

Quoting this post from another "WHM" thread that speaks so much volume and truth!

I agree, you should never pay for something you don't believe in, agree with or enjoy.

That being said there is a distinct difference between voicing your concerns in a rational thought provoking manner, and the "if you don't do as I say I quit (inserts service ect)".
If you aren't willing to admit there is an overabundance of negativity... no, unconstructive negativity surrounding this very topic you're conveniently ignoring some of largest facets where players for this game come together to talk about stuff.

So when a person talks about "American" mentality vs "Japanese" mentality You need to understand that both societies are very different from one another and since that is the case, deal with problems almost invariably different as well.
No one's arguing about how basic economics works. That type of thing transcends language barriers. But if you want to sit there and say a petition where you simply sign your name is constructive in any way shape or form then you'd have to be living under a damn tectonic plate to see what's happening right now. EVERYONE within the community is aware of what's going on and a petition isn't going to do ANYTHING. Especially when the OP of said thread said "This isn't a discussion piece, just sign if you want Whm changed" (something very similar to this) Yeah, constructive thought at it's finest.

Not everyone is Crybabying it. No one's saying that, since generalizations are always wrong. But you can't say they don't exist, (and in higher quantities than usual right now) out of convenience for the sake of an argument.

Now you have another person where in the title is "I just cancelled my pre-order". Are we going to pretend this person wasn't seeking attention? Of course they were, they were directly seeking that Shock aspect. The quitting the game spiel is the ultimate "end-game" of sorts. If it wasn't so damn contrived already anyways. Just based off the title nothing good is going to come out of that discussion. I'd have deleted it too if it were up to me since it's such a bad title. Why would I even want feedback from a person who threatens me? Why would I entertain what little that person probably has to offer when there are hundreds of posts on very valid threads on these forums as well as many other well known gathering places like Reddit where people are actually trying to help.

End point: If you want things changed, Act like it. I haven't liked Whm since ever, I got it to 50 in 2.0 and quit. So I can't offer any type of constructive criticism in that regard. However remember this, Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean it can't perform well, be fun to play and also be viable. People like to pretend only the Meta exists; Maybe it's to feel closer to their favorite players in a game, Maybe it's because they want the best strat to win, Maybe they don't wanna math it all out themselves and go with someone who seems more knowledgeable than them, and sometimes it's just a bunch of Sheep who can't think for themselves. Regardless of the reason, you're a fool to think any class isn't viable. Maybe not world first, but tell me exactly how many of you are actually trying to achieve world first? I'm willing to bet that 99% of you have never attempted or will attempt a world first clear. However in that regard whm wouldn't be the only class left out of the cool kids club now would it? There will always be a best and worst.

Try to understand that Devs have to attempt at making every class in their respective role the same but different. All tanks Need to be able to tank, deal and mitigate relatively the same amount of damage, but they need to be able to do it differently from one another. The same can be said for healers, They need to be able to heal, do some damage, and offer various utility that is different, yet balances out to be the same worth or of the same "Value". DPS are no exception. It's difficult to do and the more classes you have the harder it becomes in that you need to try and make every class... Again, the same, but different.... Otherwise the end result is something unplayable. I do sorta see where they were trying to go with the Whitemage changes, and you can't hate them for trying something out. I can't say with 100% confidence that it's a horrible system. But then again i don't have a horse in this race. I do have confidence in the community as a whole though, and the dev team. If something needs to change, I'm sure it will.

Edit: Spelling

Posting constructive criticism is one thing, but posting what you posted helps no one at all! It's nothing but one big salty hyperbolic thread.

[Johaandr]

Quoting this post from another "WHM" thread that speaks so much volume and truth!



Posting constructive criticism is one thing, but posting what you posted helps no one at all! It's nothing but one big salty hyperbolic thread.

Thank you o; i think i learned a bit (too much to read i think i almost forgot some important sentence)o;
Also i think you should stop assume things.. it's not cool. And I'm not a troll o;
Not a mega serious person in the forum when it comes to my langauge type.

[Fernosaur]

Posting constructive criticism is one thing, but posting what you posted helps no one at all! It's nothing but one big salty hyperbolic thread.

To be completely fair, if AST meets SB's release with the numbers they have showed on the Media Tours, they really do need a nerf. They have needed once since 3.4, actually.

It's not that we don't want AST to be good. I actually can understand the buff to Noct's shields because NoctAST lacks the HPS sustain that SCHs have with constant Embrace. So I get that. I think it's a terrible design choice, and more of a band-aid that is not very well implemented, specially one that comes in a time where they could have literally redesigned the entire job (like they more or less did with WAR, PLD and DRK), but I get the intent behind it.

But that's exactly the problem, though. This was THE chance they had to redesign AST to let it be its own thing and reign in the realm of utility. The problem with AST is that the basic healing toolkit is an exact copy-paste from WHM's with the added utility of cards and seemingly smaller potencies. And I say 'seemingly' because the stance buffs make the smaller potencies 100% pointless. But this, this unimaginative design that is at the core of Astrologian: that's what the problem is.

They should have taken the chance with this pseudo-fresh start to reinvent AST and give WHM its niche back. They say they want WHM to be the pure healer -something that, yes, it isn't optimal for speedkills or whatever, but it is their identity. And it can have a use, cause safety nets are very important for low-IL progression. However, AST is just as pure a healer as WHM is, due to its massive healing proficiency, and on top of that they are the Queens of party utility, blowing even Bard and Machinist -the jobs supposed to be the poster boys of support and utility- out of the water.

That is the problem with current healer balance, and the dev team completely failed to adress it. And now it is impossible to adress it in time because there's only two weeks until the release of Stormblood. With some luck, it won't be fixed until 5.0 drops. Until then, WHM is gonna suffer the same sorry fate PLD suffered throughout all of HW: they're gonna be patched up again and again with band-aids that won't even solve the core of what was PLD's main problem.

For the record, PLD's problems, and the problems surrounding tank balance in general have been adressed very well in Stormblood by making PLD's raidwide mitigation skills extremely important for progression and by switching up the main deal breakers WAR and DRK had around to be shared by all tank jobs. With the removal of the Slashing Debuff monopoly WAR had, now party compositions can be more flexible, and DRK and PLD don't have to be shoehorned into the imaginary and so-called MT position anymore thanks to the changes in their toolkits. While we will have to wait until the game releases to see for sure how much damage each tank can put out, I think PLD's damage is still gonna be slightly lower than the other two while offering very important and considerable raidwide mitigation and self-sustainment. This makes it so PLD is a very relevant cushion tank that won't be locked out of raiding. Once we overgear the content, it is likely PLD will once again fall out of fashion for speed-kills, but their utility will remain being super important and will keep them flexible and wanted in PF farms and other types of content: PLD players will not be locked out of raiding. If anything, they'll be needed for a long time.

This is what should be the case with the healers as well.

Make WHM the low-risk/low-reward healer that is reliable and perfectly stable, able to keep the party alive through anything.
Make SCH the perfect supplementary healer that has tools focused on helping their healing partners in every situation, but which requires planning and tons of strategic thinking plus opportunities for a lot of personal DPS coming from both them and their partner.
Make AST the high-risk/high-reward healer that isn't as reliable for emergencies, but brings an incredible amount of utility to expand the party's DPS output and performance through means that aren't related to their healing ability.
And also don't make their toolkit a badly-planned carbon copy of the other two healers that shoehorns them into playing WHM or playing SCH. Let AST be their own thing while respecting the other two.

That makes it so the players can choose whichever combination they want to bring: whether they wanna stick with the big deeps utility or with the safety net of WHM. Sure, WHM will probably meet the same fate PLD will likely meet in terms of speedruns and post-echo competition, but they'll remain highly relevant through all of progression and their safety net will always be a welcome addition when you don't know who you're getting paired up with. The AST/SCH combo should be riskier and should require much more communication, not the perfectly progression-safe meta it currently is.

[Kaurie]

There is no reason to nerf something before it even comes out AND with unsure potencies atm, because SO MUCH information is so mixed up and not even finalized at the moment we are just SO UNSURE of so much.

I agree for the most part on what you're saying here. That said, it does seem odd to buff the strongest healer in the game, while simultaneously nerfing both other healers.

[Yamimarik]

When there is an expansion upgrade to buy and you gain more levels you are supposed to get more powerful. So buffs are in general necessary for all jobs to make people feel like they are getting more powerful since they spent money to purchase the expansion upgrades; just like how upgrading gear does that. An expansion is something you pay for for an upgrade.

So I don't think of it as AST was undeserving of buffs...more like they didn't buff (utility/mechanics) WHM/SCH enough and/or took away too much of their DPS capability(in SCH's case) since SE seems to prefer healers be healers and seem to be trying to remove DPS aspects somewhat by removing a lot of extra DPS spells healers had.

I personally as a main AST don't like the AST changes either. I don't consider the healing potency on Diurnal a "buff" I consider it a nerf since I liked Diurnal AST for it's extra speed.

But I personally want to try SB before I freak out too much over stuff....I almost kind of want to switch to WHM for savage due to ASTs very simplified/nerfed DPS rotation now. I understand since AST offers cards we can't DPS for a lot, but the unfortunate side effect of that is boring gameplay. We lost 2/3 of our DoTs so single target DPS is reduced to Combust II then spam Malefic III and that's it and lost a lot of weaving capability :/

Finally! someone who gets it! This is exactly how I feel for the most part. A lot of the cure potency buffs I completely agree with, were not warranted on AST at all. To me as well taking our speed buff away from Diurnal feels more like a nerf then a buff w/ the potency on it now. I'm hoping both the English and Japanese tool tips are wrong and or changed because it really isn't needed, and at least for me, wanted.

The original line had (joke) behind it. And i removed it. Bcuse this forum has people like you with red eyes. So sorry for joking.
This is the forum full of randoms like me and, you gotta accept that.

being off topic.

Debates are extremely heated at the moment for healer. Even for AST. So no.... I don't have to accept anything, and I'm assuming you're insulting me, if that's the case... that doesn't help either. If enough people tried to really get behind such a joke, sometimes the devs will give it some thought, so no I didn't find it funny, and I never want AST back in the stone-age of 3.0 launch. So I didn't find it amusing, your original post is still very hyperbolic even without the bad joke.

I agree for the most part on what you're saying here. That said, it does seem odd to buff the strongest healer in the game, while simultaneously nerfing both other healers.

I actually didn't say it in my original post you quoted, but I was quoting the OP's original post before they edited and shuffled a lot of the wording around. No, I'm ok with them removing the healing potency on AST and their sects, because it really isn't needed (at least as of now, I could be wrong as all of us are and it is a warranted buff because we really have NO information on endgame for 4.0 as of now and present.) But... I was more referring to the OP wanting Earthly Star already nerfed. That was more what I was referring to.

[Johaandr]

spam

Not worth it dramatic dude