Samurai Discussion

[PROBOUND]

Is Starry Eyes useless? It costs the same Kenki as Hissatsu: Shinten but has 100 less potency. Would there be a situation were you'll actually use this skill over Merciful Eyes?

Taken from the Reddit Thread

Starry Eyes might possibly only cost 15 Kenki according to the Japanese tooltip + players experence. Based on the "5 Kenki=60 Potency" rule then Starry Eyes would be better to use over Hissatsu: Shinten.

So its a small potency gain to use Starry Eyes over Shinten assuming the tooltips are wrong, however just getting it to proc is the obstacle. Seems very situational as we only have 3 seconds to take damage from Third Eye. Think of it as a Reprisal (DRK ability) that we only have 3 seconds to proc DMG taken (vs. Parry any attack anytime). Pretty lame. I hope they adjust it to at least 5 seconds. Unless Melee Tanking Adds is going to be a thing, i can't see any real world usage for these sets of Eye Skills asside from the "Oh i have a prey icon above my head, better pop Third Eye, then self heal with Merciful once damage is taken".

15 Second CD on Third Eye, I guess SAM might be the Self Healing Melee kings?

[Sai-Kon]

Is Starry Eyes useless? It costs the same Kenki as Hissatsu: Shinten but has 100 less potency. Would there be a situation were you'll actually use this skill over Merciful Eyes?

Starry's eye actual cost is 15 kenki (not 25 as stated on gamer escape picture). It is an efficient attack but it is situational.

[Sai-Kon]

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

[Sai-Kon]

Theoretically, you would get a benefit from Hagakure in 8x uses of it, which would grant 3 Sen. 8x Hagakure translates to approximately 5 minutes and 20 seconds of non-stop fight. But there is no such fight with non-stop DPS, there is always downtime for mechanics and downtime is a value loss for Hagakure.

Also when you convert the 3 Sen with Hagakure, it takes some time till you spend all the Kenki on Shintens, and in the opener it is a DPS loss because the earliest you can cast Hagakure is at 16.87 seconds after pull (assuming you start with 3-part combo, Higanbana, then Meikyo Shisui to get 3 Sen, then Hagakure) and the 16th second is when cooldowns like Trick Attack end, or for Battle Litany it has 3-4 seconds left till it falls off. Probably this is why Daioh tried to double weave 2x Shinten so that they get buffed by Battle Litany but that is very risky because ping and server lag are apparent in FFXIV and you might end up delaying your next weaponskill by a second or more.

[Sai-Kon]

Overall, that means that there is no realistic benefit from spending 3 Sen on Hagakure at all. I will try to calculate if there is any value/use to it. Important note: All the theorycrafting here is based on what we know. There is always the possibility that there might be potential changes during release and Hagakure become more valuable or Midare less potent. In the light of all the things mentioned above, the rotation I posted earlier, while still good, it probably isn't very efficient either because apparently Hagakure isn't as efficient as alternative options. I will start on a new simulation and this time I will only post here when I get final results of the most optimized rotation, which takes into account everything, not before.

[KennyRedsteele]

I must have missed this hagakure with one sen. When would you do that? I haven't seen any openers that contained this yet unless I'm blind. Do you mean Higanbana (which can only be cast with one sen)?

Oops, there was a mistake while typing it. Let me correct it right away:

Hakaze - Jinpu - Gekko - Iaijutsu - Hakaze - Shifu - Hissatsu: Shinten - Kasha - Meikyo Shisui - Gekko - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu - Kasha - Hagakure - Hakaze - Hissatsu: Guren - Jinpu - Gekko - Hakaze - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Shinten - Hakaze - Shifu - Kasha - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu

There we use 1 Sen

[Greywolfamakir]

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

You are wrong again...You forget that Kaiten costs 20 Kenki.

Long Example:
1 complete rotation potency:
150 * 3 = 450. (Hakaze)
450 + 340 = 790 (Yukikaze)
790 + 280 = 1070 (Jumpu)
1070 + 400 = 1470 (Gekko)
1470 + 280 = 1750 (Shifu)
1750 + 400 = 2150 (Kasha)
8 GCDs = 2150 potency + 55 Kenki.

Now we have 2 options:

Hagakure
With Hagakure we will have 115 kenki (Max Kenki is 100, i know, but its no relevant here) with 8 GCDs, then.
Shinten kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
115 kenki * 12 = 1380 potency from kenki. Total Potency = 1260 + 2150 = 3530 Potency with 8 GCDs.
3530 / 8 = 441.25 Potency per GCD

Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten
With Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten we will have 35 kenki (35 - 20)
Shinten Kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
35 Kenki * 12 = 420 potency from kenki
Midare Setsugekka + Kenki = 1080 potency. Total Potency = 1080 + 420 + 2150 = 3650 potency with 9 GCDs.
3650 / 9 = 405.55 Potency per GCD
.
tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

[Sai-Kon]

tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

Don't try so hard to sound smart, it's not. You should compare equal things, not 8 GCDs to 9. If you add one Hakaze to the Hagakure calculations so that the comparison is between equal things (9 GCDs in the current context), you will notice that it turns out that Hagakure calculation you did there gives 408.88 potency. This is a mere 3 potency difference than the Kaiten + Midare rotation, however, the math here is on a theoretical spectrum and does not take into account that Midare will be cast while either Trick Attack or Battle Litany is still up and will fully benefit from that, while not all 3 Shinten you get from Hagakure benefit from raid cooldowns because it requires a bigger span to spend the Kenki on Shinten (between 2-3 GCD), which renders Kaiten+Midare not only better but also way simpler to manage in a pragmatic scenario. Your math doesn't take into account that any downtime during fight where you don't use Hagakure right off the bat when it comes off cooldown due to mechanics will result in Hagakure losing value and hence DPS loss, so over the span of a fight Hagakure rotation will end up losing more value. Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

[Leonus]

Sensing quite a bit of animosity there.

Anyway, all these calculations are great, but we have to see how it somewhat feels. I don't believe Sam will be difficult, just spend kenki wisely and plan ahead. I do appreciate the opener. Though I am starting to understand the calculations a bit more. What most people probably want to knoiw is, what exactly takes priority in more simple terms than numbers.

I would also be more interested in understanding the latencies and I get what your getting your calculations from but I haven't put it together completely yet.

[Greywolfamakir]

Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

I didn't copy-paste nothing else out of me, I did that maths, they are mine, they are right. I know you dont like it, Midare Setsugekka is really cool and you want that Midare Setsugekka be better than Hagakure, but im sorry, Hagakure is better.

9 GCDs: Hagakure = 415.5 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten= 405.55 p/GCD
10 GCDs: Hagakure = 408 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 386 p/GCD
11 GCDs: Hagakure = 418.18 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 381.81 p/GCD
12 GCDs: Hagakure = 400.8 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 393.33 p/GCD

I can reach 500 GCDs but it wont change the result...

About Trick Attack...Litany...etc, you can spend 60 kenki during buff window easy, if you cant, use Midare Setsugekka or learn how to spend 60 Kenki faster.

Hagakure has 40 seconds CD, its a really good DPS CD, I understand that its less cool than Midare Setsugekka, i agree, i dont like Hagakure indeed, but its not about what i like it about potency and math.

In fact, Samurai just has 3 DPS CDs, Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren. When you dont have Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren you'll do normal rotation with Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten