We're all DDs now >.>

[MirielleLavandre]

So surprised my thread is still going...I think, and hope, that we all agree on a few things even if many seem to be in disagreement over some things. I think that everyone agrees that IF THERE IS DOWNTIME, healers should do SOMETHING - anything - instead of just standing there. Like I wrote before, healers need comfort/experience in duty and with dps-ing, as well as downtime to dps in, in order to dps. RP purposes and 'playstyle' can also come into this, though even those RP people should at least RP some if they have downtime and can't dps for RP reasons >.> <.< I think in Kisa's defense, she/he states she has no downtime, and thus it makes sense she can't dps. I, personally, have so much downtime I could probably play both FFXI [dps-ing in FFXI....erm.... how about a light skill chain with banish/dia/holy...that's about it ^_^] and FF14 at the same time if I didn't dps, but again - it is a difference in playstyle and probably comfort

I don't think Kisa is saying that healers shouldn't dps - maybe she's saying they shouldn't be 'expected' to dps if they can't or don't have the downtime to? Not sure since sometimes the arguments are a lil hard to follow ^^ Maybe I am wrong and she's saying healers shouldn't dps even if they have the downtime, which in that case I suppose I'd have to disagree a little since what else is one to do during downtime?

Anyways - thanks again all for the input - I, too, hope that any new players who read this thread come away with this, at least:
- If you have downtime, are comfortable with the duty, and not RP'ing a peace loving flower-child, then at least cast something during said downtime, even a tiny non-cleric stance debuff if you don't like 'stance dancing' (which is gone in 10 days...)
- No one should kick/abuse healers who can't dps b/c they lack any of the above and don't dps (downtime/comfort)
- At the same time, no healer should just stand around doing absolutely nothing while other people do at least something (even if the dps is not doing a correct rotation // looking at you, ice mages....)

Let's all have fun and hopefully agree on these points? SB is coming soon -- maybe dungeons will be tuned enough to require a little more active healing like the Vault did in HW. On the bright side, at least Cure2 gives a guaranteed Lily now... >.> <.<

[Aramina]

I don't think Kisa is saying that healers shouldn't dps - maybe she's saying they shouldn't be 'expected' to dps if they can't or don't have the downtime to? Not sure since sometimes the arguments are a lil hard to follow ^^ Maybe I am wrong and she's saying healers shouldn't dps even if they have the downtime, which in that case I suppose I'd have to disagree a little since what else is one to do during downtime?

A little of both really. Her premise is that healers having downtime is a myth... that if you go more than 5 seconds without healing the tank the group will wipe unless you vastly outgear it.

Anyways - thanks again all for the input - I, too, hope that any new players who read this thread come away with this, at least:
- If you have downtime, are comfortable with the duty, and not RP'ing a peace loving flower-child, then at least cast something during said downtime, even a tiny non-cleric stance debuff if you don't like 'stance dancing' (which is gone in 10 days...)
- No one should kick/abuse healers who can't dps b/c they lack any of the above and don't dps (downtime/comfort)
- At the same time, no healer should just stand around doing absolutely nothing while other people do at least something (even if the dps is not doing a correct rotation // looking at you, ice mages....)

I can 100% agree with this.

[Orrias]

Doing all that you can to see to the success of the group IS equal contribution.

How do you measure "equal contribution" of different roles? Apples and oranges... :P

as a healer (and a tank though I never mained a tank) in WoW you were/are absolutely expected to do damage when healing was covered in high end raiding.

My issue with the mentality is where it should be picked up by players, during their progression through the game.

Solo gaming is for playing how you want, anytime you venture into group activity you should be of the mind to do what the group needs, not what you want. If you want to half-ass it, PF is there to find other people that want to do that as well.

Sure, I agree, but the issue stems from a vocal part of the playerbase just expecting random people to be able to perform in dungeons/PUGs. I think that's unfair and the vitriol/childishness that ensues is saddening. People need to use a bit of conventional wisdom and tact to encourage random players to increase their skill with the Job/Role, because at the end of the day, trying to force people to do something they're not comfortable/familiar with isn't going to go down well.

Imagine if you just got back into an old MMO or a new one's endgame, only to find that more seasoned players expected more than what's listed as an expectation to the Jobs fantasy (e.g. if you picked up FFXIV wanting to heal and then was suddenly bombard by others saying you're supposed to dps too, it may comes as a surprise), and then compound that with the tactless bashing that people do.

My approach this in a broad sense; as PF and statics vet for what they expect/what their intentions and goals are. It's in DF (NA/EU) - typically dungeons - that this occurs. If it's a random dungeon, then expect Joe/Jane Doe to not be up to the same standard (if you're mid-hardcore) - hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[Orrias]

That's not entirely correct - It's less about the genre and more about the particular game.

That's what I was saying: FFXIV is (un)intentionally added to the process of evolving what is traditionally expected of MMO roles. People in Everquest, SWG, Lineage, etc., weren't approaching roles like they had to do dps. They were focused on their respective roles' job (e.g. heal or tank).

Most MMO didn't typically allow for such gapping windows of opportunity to dps like Healers can in FFXIV, unless the GCD was long or the combat was slow in w/e fashion. The vast majority of playerbases weren't able to add substantial percentages of dps to mix, until they overgeared the content or it was nerfed.

That in turn means that the easier and more powerful tanks and healers are, the less they become healers/tanks, as the emphasis of gameplay shifts to other things - their core role is mandatory up to a point and then useless. The shift goes to damage, or damage support. And since healers and tanks also get extensive damage tools for solo play these days, that enforces the shift all the more, as it increases the efficiency of it.

Absolutely. Once a Tank has taken and can't be striped of aggro/hate, or a Healer/Healers' resources are comfortably in the range of not being overrun by HPS required, then it makes sense to do something with X resource and time of said player. However, I don't think it's something that veteran players of any MMO should expect a (new) random casual to get straight away or want to do, really. It'd be nice, but I wouldn't expect it or beat someone over the head with it. :/

[Aramina]

How do you come "equal contribution" of different roles?
My issue with the mentality is where it should be picked up by players, during their progression through the game.

Quite easily. Does someone have full/adequate resources? Are they just standing there for large portions of time?

If yes, they are not equally contributing.

Imagine if you just got back into an old MMO or a new one's endgame, only to find that more seasoned players expected more than what's listed as an expectation to the Jobs fantasy (e.g. if you picked up FFXIV wanting to heal and then was suddenly bombard by others saying you're supposed to dps too, it may comes as a surprise), and then compound that with the tactless bashing that people do.

I did just that. I didn't start out as a DPSing healer. I read forums/guides/listened to people in game and slowly worked toward becoming adept/comfortable with dpsing during my healing downtime.

My approach this in a broad sense; as PF and statics vet for what they expect/what their intentions and goals are. It's in DF (NA/EU) - typically dungeons - that this occurs. If it's a random dungeon, then expect Joe/Jane Doe to not be up to the same standard (if you're mid-hardcore) - hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Which is fair. I personally wouldn't kick anyone for not dpsing (or dpsing enough as an actual DPS) (unless it is to the point that we are in danger of not completing the objective), but that doesn't mean I am going to say that is a perfectly ok way of playing, because it isn't.

[Waliel]

Also, as a healer (and a tank though I never mained a tank) in WoW you were/are absolutely expected to do damage when healing was covered in high end raiding. The only thing that changes is how much you are able to do that.

I don't know how it is nowadays, but when I was raid healing in the vanilla to wrath era, there was absolutely zero expectations for healer deeps. This is actually the first game I've seen where people expect healers to do anything but heal - healers where part of their whole healing kit is tied to damage not withstanding. Closest I've seen was in Aion with that staff class that was a pure support being a 1/3 healer, 1/3 damage and 1/3 group buffs.

I wish mobs did damage in this game outside of tankbusters or big AoEs. I felt sad in A4S when the boss was hitting for 2000 and it took forever to kill everyone when we called for a wipe.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

The fact that you can even describe a parser tells me you've used one. Every data-mined thing about this game was acquired via such activity. So no, it's only obvious that someone is not playing to their potential when they are not even trying.....

I know what a parser does.
I've never used one in any game.

It's not hard to learn that a parser reads the output of something, parsing it.
In this case, the combat log.
And then quickly compiles that data into an easy to read format for the end user.

How do you measure "equal contribution" of different roles? Apples and oranges... :P
....

In the case of what we're discussing in this thread...
Activating skills in such a way that they activly contribute to the duty...

Such as, healers casting heals when the party needs healing, and when they don't need healing casting something else that contributes...

Overhealing is not contributing, so the only other option is damage.


I'm sure people would be upset if their dps or tanks weren't activating skills at least close to the gcd time...

[joannaluttrell]

Out of posts on my main so posting on alt...

I don't know how it is nowadays, but when I was raid healing in the vanilla to wrath era, there was absolutely zero expectations for healer deeps. This is actually the first game I've seen where people expect healers to do anything but heal - healers where part of their whole healing kit is tied to damage not withstanding.

I guess it would depend on what level of raiding you were doing (Normal/Heroic) and how early into the raid cycle you were doing it. I know all the guilds I have raided with (always as a healer, generally as a healing lead) the thought process on deciding which healers would participate in any given progression fight were a) Do any healing specs have an advantage on this particular fight b) What cds do we need? X or Y, or X and Y, or none of the above c) Who is able to do the most outside just healing. It was always assumed that any combo could heal a fight... who got actually picked for the fight was based on other measures.

If you were doing Heroic raiding in say.... top 25-50 and no one worried about healer DPS then all I can say is our experiences differed.

[missybee]

This gawd awful raider mentality that if you're not constantly casting medica II, you're not healing anyone, raiders keep ignoring the mechanics of the regular content.

I am so triggered by this statement that I am going to go cut my hair short and dye it brick red.

You have to be trolling, right? ...right?

[HappyHubris]

. . FFXIV is very lenient and that's why the DPS meta is so rampant here. If we'd nerf all heals by 50% tomorrow and put tank armor on the level of DPS armor while making mitigation part of the active rotation, people might well stop asking healers and tanks to DPS in but a day, as most would likely be happy if they'd get but a functional tank/healer in the first place. As is, functioning as tank/healer is so easy, it's a given. That's not necessarily the case in other games within the genre.

In that, it probably is a situational problem - the situation being FFXIV.

Agreed 1000%. I want to main WHM in SB for aesthetic reasons (and a general proclivity towards healing in other MMOs), but nothing is more boring than healing in content where healing isn't needed much.

The fact that this entire game is tuned to barely require healing or tanking means that DPS is the only sane option.