We're all DDs now >.>

[Feidam]

I am of the opinion that bad is bad regardless of role. Do you think they would be any better if dps wasn't the meta?

edit: Maybe I am biased since as a healer I don't see these terrible healers? I have the urge to continually queue for expert as a DPS so I can see.

I burn through a ton of potions on certain bosses, from healers that dps first and heal second. They seem to think dps class don't get healing cause they should just avoid everything. Never mind some damage is just flat out unavoidable. I am all for healers dosing when they can as I find that an enjoying play style myself. However, there a good number of healers that think dpsing is their job too to the detriment of their healing. I am tired of the just "pot" so I can dps more mentality from some healers.

[Lambdafish]

I burn through a ton of potions on certain bosses, from healers that dps first and heal second. They seem to think dps class don't get healing cause they should just avoid everything. Never mind some damage is just flat out unavoidable. I am all for healers dosing when they can as I find that an enjoying play style myself. However, there a good number of healers that think dpsing is their job too to the detriment of their healing. I am tired of the just "pot" so I can dps more mentality from some healers.

That actually has nothing to do with the pro-dps argument though, and we would all agree with you that they are a bad player just as much as a healer that doesn't DPS.

[KisaiTenshi]

Now explain again why you feel healers have no room to dps and is a myth?

*eyeroll*

1) The dungeons and raids are designed to be played with the roles you signed up for. Tank, Healer, DPS.
2) The dungeons and raids can be completed with everyone having the minimum ilevel. That might be hard. They would not design something to be impossible, so clearly the dev team can do it.
3) If you're playing the roles exactly as prescribed, then those duties go by fairly quickly.
4) The only way to know what the healer, or anyone's DPS is by violating the game's TOS with unauthorized tools.

So. There is no requirement, nor has there ever been a requirement for healers or tanks to DPS assuming the minimum level/ilevel is met, nor has there been a requirement not to. Now obviously there are ways of fudging this like tanks wearing DPS gear or healers wearing caster gear that has the wrong secondary values on them, and that is likely not something tested for.

As content ages, people become overleveled, so level sync gives players playing lower level content too much of a leg up. Same with gear. All the challenge is sucked out of the game when wearing the highest ilevel gear makes it a faceroll.

I'm pretty sure you, or anyone else doesn't spend 40 consecutive days playing every combination of job and dungeon just so they remember how to do it on that job~. No I'm pretty sure most players play just one or two jobs and the rest is just was just for achievements/bragging rights and were never actually played at the minimum ilevel.

[Ama_Hamada]

Don't get me wrong, some of them are just flat out bad in general. What I'm more referring to are that a fair number of times if I get a healer that DPSs at all, they go for constant DPS and spam cooldowns for actual healing sort of gameplay. It does theoretically work, but it also means that ifsomething goes wrong, such as someone happening to get caught by an AoE, it tends to go rather south quickly because the healer can't switch out of Cleric Stance quick enough or doesn't have any cooldowns available. MCH is my main, and consequently what I use for most roulettes, and I've had more than a few times where if I didn't have potions, I'd die because the healers were too busy DPSing while I was sitting at half health or lower for 30s or so prior to an unavoidable mechanic. It's also entirely possible that I notice it more since as a MCH I don't have any self healing, (currently), other than using potions. Though I've also seen plenty of times where they'll let the tank get down to ~20% HP before switching back and popping a few cooldowns on him, or a SCH will just decide to let their fairy heal after a party wide AoE because they're in Cleric Stance. For all I know, maybe I'm just that unlucky to find all the worst types of DPS healers in the game......

That is bad healing, has nothing to do with cleric stance, it is only 5 seconds. Only time I see that is in 24 man DFs like dun or city, so sick of co healers making me do all the work because they can't cast an aoe heal here or there. Please do not misblame bad players on an ability -.- be no different them me saying we need to get rid of DPS stances in tanks because most can't hold hate and use DPS stance when tank stance is needed. How come more don't jump on that? Why do people finger point cleric so much?

Cleric stance is not to blame, I say "Help me heal" not flip out on cleric. I also seen pure healers lack skill in healing and had same thing "sitting at half health or lower for 30s or so prior to an unavoidable mechanic" making me stress all my abilities solo healing to keep people up. Most notable is that peity melded whm that called me rude for asking for help to raise people when I am sitting at 0-2000 mp with them 8000+/16000 with me blowing stuff like Dissipation for a small mp gain.

*eyeroll*

1) The dungeons and raids are designed to be played with the roles you signed up for. Tank, Healer, DPS.
2) The dungeons and raids can be completed with everyone having the minimum ilevel. That might be hard. They would not design something to be impossible, so clearly the dev team can do it.
3) If you're playing the roles exactly as prescribed, then those duties go by fairly quickly.
4) The only way to know what the healer, or anyone's DPS is by violating the game's TOS with unauthorized tools.

So. There is no requirement, nor has there ever been a requirement for healers or tanks to DPS assuming the minimum level/ilevel is met, nor has there been a requirement not to. Now obviously there are ways of fudging this like tanks wearing DPS gear or healers wearing caster gear that has the wrong secondary values on them, and that is likely not something tested for.

As content ages, people become overleveled, so level sync gives players playing lower level content too much of a leg up. Same with gear. All the challenge is sucked out of the game when wearing the highest ilevel gear makes it a faceroll.

I'm pretty sure you, or anyone else doesn't spend 40 consecutive days playing every combination of job and dungeon just so they remember how to do it on that job~. No I'm pretty sure most players play just one or two jobs and the rest is just was just for achievements/bragging rights and were never actually played at the minimum ilevel.

*eye roll*
another post missing the point.

Healers have a lot of down time in this game, your post has nothing to do with this point, it is not a myth. It also has nothing to do with gear, this was refuted to you long ago when someone did expert in min gear and still found lots of time to DPS. You can also clear DFs in 30 mins with a DPS doing 200 DPS... but that is not a defense it should be acceptable.

So what point are you trying to make? How can you write so much with no point?

[Aramina]

That actually has nothing to do with the pro-dps argument though, and we would all agree with you that they are a bad player just as much as a healer that doesn't DPS.

This. I think they are just bad. Now, I will say if healer DPS wasn't a thing at all we may stop seeing those folks but it would *not* be because doing dps was bad but because they weren't healers to begin with and just saw "hey healers dps so I can get a fast queue and just dps". I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and say dpsing as a healer is irresponsible because some nitwits are taking advantage of it.

edit: In conclusion: Not dpsing ever* and over dpsing are symptoms of the same problem: bad players.

*before someone jumps on me can we please assume at this point we are talking about experienced players and not new people/new to the dungeon or when there is healing to be done

[Lazka]

That actually has nothing to do with the pro-dps argument though, and we would all agree with you that they are a bad player just as much as a healer that doesn't DPS.

sorry to say, but i wouldnt aggre for that, a healer not DPS =/= bad player
sure, if healer can DPS and healing at the same time make it luxury or a pro player. but flat out sayin all healer is bad bcause not DPSin is kinda... too over i think

[Aramina]

sorry to say, but i wouldnt aggre for that, a healer not DPS =/= bad player
sure, if healer can DPS and healing at the same time make it luxury or a pro player. but flat out sayin all healer is bad bcause not DPSin is kinda... too over i think

Any player that spends time standing there doing nothing IS bad. Sorry if that offends, but it does not make it any less true. This has nothing to do with what role someone is. Lazy is lazy. Period.

If anyone posted that it is ok for a DPS to spend some time inactive because he needed to watch his surroundings, they would be laughed off the forum.
If anyone posted that it is ok for a Tank to spend some time inactive because he needed to watch his surroundings, they would be laughed off the forum.
If anyone posted that it is ok for a Healer to spend some time inactive because he needed to watch his surroundings... there would be a flock of people running to defend the poor healer.

Double standards are dumb.

edit:
Now that I have gone partial /soapbox I may as well go full force.

The answer to healers not DPSing would be to make healing more demanding. Do you think that would make everything sunshine and roses? Sorry to rain on your thought parade but that it is *not* what would happen. DPSing as a healer teaches you a very important skill: Triage. It is about knowing when you need to heal, whom you need to heal, and how much you need to heal them. If healing requirements are increased do you know what *THE* most important skill will become? Triage. OMG THE TANK IS GETTING WRECKED BUT THERE WAS JUST AN AOE WHAT DO I DO? Who needs healing the most? Can I toss a hot here and a heal there? Will an AoE hot be enough for everyone? etc.

Triage.

[Feidam]

That actually has nothing to do with the pro-dps argument though, and we would all agree with you that they are a bad player just as much as a healer that doesn't DPS.

I'm not sure I agree 100% here. If the meta wasn't healers must dps or be labeled bad we would see much less of the problems here. Sure some players are just not very talented but I think the current mindset of what healers should do regarding dps exacerbates the issue. Also, keep in mind most people over gear the content currently which allows for the healers must dps mentality.

[Lambdafish]

I'm not sure I agree 100% here. If the meta wasn't healers must dps or be labeled bad we would see much less of the problems here. Sure some players are just not very talented but I think the current mindset of what healers should do regarding dps exacerbates the issue. Also, keep in mind most people over gear the content currently which allows for the healers must dps mentality.

So whats the alternative? The DPS argument works on a priority system of Heals > Mitigation > DoTs > DPS are you suggesting that we change that to Heals > Mitigation > Idle?

Btw, I don't think its been said, but if you are experienced with the game, spotting the difference between a lazy player, a new player, and a bad player is easier than you might think.

sorry to say, but i wouldnt aggre for that, a healer not DPS =/= bad player
sure, if healer can DPS and healing at the same time make it luxury or a pro player. but flat out sayin all healer is bad bcause not DPSin is kinda... too over i think

Come stormblood you won't even have cleric stance to contend with. I think the barrier of being a pro player is higher than throwing out a DoT during the 30 seconds that the tanks HP barely changes. I am in no way a pro healer, my healing ability stops around HM primals and NM raids and even I spend the majority of my time in cleric. Its not player skill that puts people in cleric stance, its the low difficulty tuning of content.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So whats the alternative? The DPS argument works on a priority system of Heals > Mitigation > DoTs > DPS are you suggesting that we change that to Heals > Mitigation > Idle?

Btw, I don't think its been said, but if you are experienced with the game, spotting the difference between a lazy player, a new player, and a bad player is easier than you might think.

My rule of thumb for potential lazy healers without any third party programs:

1. Has Cleric Stance ever been turned on?
2. Have they remained active and not idled during various portion of the run?
3. When selected, does their cast bar show Stone/Aero/Combust/Broil?
4. Has the tank and/or DPS taken higher damage than otherwise common for that particular dungeon/trial/raid?
5. Are they new or announced their inexperience DPSing?

If the answer to all these questions is no, you have found a lazy healer. And you can generally pinpoint this within the first minute.