We're all DDs now >.>

[Aramina]

As someone who frequently plays SCH, and DPSs quite a bit, I can see both sides of this argument.

There is no side in this thread that says DPS so much you forget you are a healer. The sides are "DPS when you have no healing to do (or when you become comfortable with it as a new player)." or "Don't DPS at all."

[Critical-Limit]

I get it healer only people(most of them[anecdotal]). You have anxiety, you may have tried out dps, but ended up wiping the group so you just stuck to healing so you don't get judged by others. Now people are judging you for not dpsing so naturally you defend your choice however you can.

That anxiety you feel, can be solved. By just trying. You won't get good super fast everyone gets good at different speeds. If you're too afraid practic with people you trust.

Your anxiety exists because you don't understand. If you can train so you can understand. Knowledge makes anxiety go away. I play scary games, first time through super scary, 2nd time cuz I know everything absolutely zero anxiety or fear.

And on the plus side your peers will appreciate your effort more

[Granyala]

Don't you find this kind of telling? Everyone else got all these new toys they get to play with at will.... and you are going to effectively ignore your stuff.

Yeah, they dropped the ball on that one. 20% for a 30 second stack ON THE TARGET from cures only; 20% for a flower from cures only is quite well... disconnected from what we White Mages actually do when we play this game.

[Ama_Hamada]

We're restarting this argument again? Okay let me repeat what I said before because it seems like y'all want to play the "casuals are stupid", "raiders are also stupid" game.1) This game does not forgive stupid. If you have a bad DPS, that is because they're a bad DPS. The same goes for any other role.
2) It is not the Tank or Healer's job to DPS. If the DPS play poorly, the tank and healer can requeue faster than the DPS can.
3) Raiders ignore mechanics, casuals ignore efficiency.

The healer ran out of MP 45 seconds into the dungeon because they died. If you run out of MP as a healer, you are playing poorly, or your team is not working. The fact that this took less than 4 minutes suggests that everyone was overgeared anyhow, so I'm not sure what you are trying to impress here, that the Healer had enough opportunity to DPS, die and have no MP afterwards, or that the DPS had to raise the healer.

That is not how they design the dungeon. The dungeon has specific mechanics that you play as designed, or you leverage what you have to make it go faster/do-less-damage.
If your party is good at dodging AOE's, or taking out "object-that-will-cause-lots-of-damage", you may remember that the final boss of the Vault and the final boss of the "Brayflox Longstop hard" has the same mechanics. What do you do with Brayflox? You use any AOE to blow the bombs away, that is usually up to the healer because good gawd, someone might not follow the mechanics and get hit by multiple bombs. What do you do in the Vault? there enough time to maybe take out one of the holy flames, but it's better to just cast stoneskin or medica II because any left over will do heavy damage.

I've played both of these a few times recently, and yes players are ignoring the mechanics, sometimes in horribly stupid ways, but a good healer can actually make up for this. If you have a perfect team that dodges all the AOE's, and a tank that manages to keep hate all the time, then a healer may have that opportunity to DPS, but that is not very often, and a healer that is spending more time DPS'ing than healing either has a good team, or is playing poorly on purpose~.

This argument keeps coming back because obviously the Cleric Stance is a terrible mechanic that should have been thrown away the minute Yoshi-P became involved with V1.0. It exists to do solo content. The same with tanks stance dancing. The changes to V4.0 are clearly meant to get players to play the game as the roles they are given and not everyone be half time DPS. By removing the cleric stance mechanic, that means healers can opportunisticly use their entire toolkit, and not be force to decide if that 5 second CS switch in and out is going to flatten the party. Because good gawd why would anyone ever want to just be stuck casting Cure I, Cure II and Medica~.

The loudest complaints on the forum are from people who are playing the game wrong, know better, but complain anyway that their lazy strategy won't be as effective. So what. You know what I bet is going to happen? I bet that everyone will just keep playing the raids the way they were before, absent missing skills and they will just have to take an extra minute and play with a better strategy.

I mean really, where is the fun in facerolling over content? If you're not regularly playing the leveling queue, and playing with people of all sorts of skill levels, then you're probably just playing with static's or the FC members you actually give a care about most of the time. That's what happens in all games. There is no incentive to play with strangers outside the DF bonus tomes. So many of y'all are like "ugh, have to play with scrubs for tomes, brb" rather than actually having fun~. Like really, I've been witness to the entire "guild is full of mooches" and "guild is full of eliteists using unauthorized tools/paid others to grind for them" thing before in another game, it's quite frankly embarrassing how often you find out that supposedly good players are just lazy players who paid other people to grind for them. So I'm extremely skeptical about people who claim they are good at this game, or any game, and all this thread proved is that many people are are accusing others of the very same thing they are doing themselves.

Raiders are being jerks to casual players, casual players are being jerks to those who they also deem lazy, there's two different play styles for healer here, and the way you play the raid content is not the way you play the MSQ content or any other 4-man content. 4-man content has one healer, and if you are telling them to DPS, you are telling them to play the game as a role they did not sign up for. If you want to play MSQ/level50/level60 content like you would a raid, do everyone a favor and use your static to play the dungeon instead of trying to convince casual players they are bad.

A bad player does not get through content except by being carried. That is why I said looking at achievements or gear proves absolutely nothing, if you are looking at that then you're only looking for some argument ad hominem instead of trying to disprove the argument. I can make the same statement that anyone using a parser for any reason is cheating. Thus the only way you would know if the healer DPS counts is by cheating.

Hence reductio ad absurdum. Anyone who says healer DPS matters must therefor be cheating~!

So no, I don't see what you're trying to prove here Ama.

I knew you where clueless, but not that clueless. Healers DPS to do something, I do not get your point in this post. Can you even see why the healer died? it was even hinted at with adding the extra sloppy audio. The tank had NO clue what they where doing, bad opener, the only people DOING DPS WAS THE HEALER AND SMN! has nothing to do with over gear or this or that. Knowing how to manage mp and knowing what you can do also is a factor. You did notice she was still dpsing even though mp was low from the bad tank letting her die yes? If you can't see why she was playing like that and KNOWING she could, I do not know what else to say other then you don't know what you are talking about. Yes this again because you want to say healing DPS is a myth.

Even with your wall of text I do not know how you missed the basic point? even with the bad tank and mnk, the healer still dps a large amount of the time. The fight saw 2 healing collars, that is how bad the tank and mnk where. If everyone was top gear + skill, he dies on sometime on the first wave of spears where you get LB, having him sit on 70% hp or w/e that point is a joke. 4/4 skilled members vs 2/4 and 2 dead weights is a big difference. This is why the dev team said there is a huge skill gap to begin with. (I seen i270 geared people see 2 waves of spear as well, that shouldn't happen, skill gap is huge)

Now explain again why you feel healers have no room to dps and is a myth?

"Raiders are being jerks to casual players, casual players are being jerks to those who they also deem lazy, there's two different play styles for healer here"

The reverse happens as well, in fact more often and even happened last night. Know nothing PLD harassed my black mage friend over "pressing too many buttons" because the PLD could not hold hate off her despite using quelling strikes. The PLD and the premade friend kept going at her talking about how she should stop casting because they do not know how to play. I see unskilled doing more harassing then the skilled ones, esp when it comes to weekends. (Maybe this is how SE noticed the skill gap?)

[Gamer3427]

There is no side in this thread that says DPS so much you forget you are a healer. The sides are "DPS when you have no healing to do (or when you become comfortable with it as a new player)." or "Don't DPS at all."

Tell that to about 80% of the DF healers I come across at level 60. That particular aspect of my post was more of a rant because a large portion of the "endgame", (maxed out melded gear), healers I come across tend to forget they're supposed to be healing half the time.....

[Shurrikhan]

A bad player does not get through content except by being carried. That is why I said looking at achievements or gear proves absolutely nothing, if you are looking at that then you're only looking for some argument ad hominem instead of trying to disprove the argument. I can make the same statement that anyone using a parser for any reason is cheating. Thus the only way you would know if the healer DPS counts is by cheating.

Alternate ways to know:
- Relative potency given full uptime and same item level
- Healer percentile enmity given heal potency dealt and tank relative enmity potency thus far
- Variance in fight duration where others' behavior is fairly consistent

Please tell me you're not also one of those Dragoons who will try to ban people for telling them to use Heavy Thrust...

EDIT: Also, the healer died because the tank aimed a one-shot non-telegraphed conal AoE at them (or lost enmity to the healer; I'll rewatch to double-check). That, after all, was the purpose of the video—to show that even MSQ dungeons have (on non-tanks) one-shot mechanics, as per Ama's reference on the quote prior? And that, in such cases, there's a large margin between healing to be done, and shit that's got nothing to do with healing.

[Aramina]

Tell that to about 80% of the DF healers I come across at level 60. That particular aspect of my post was more of a rant because a large portion of the "endgame", (maxed out melded gear), healers I come across tend to forget they're supposed to be healing half the time.....

I am of the opinion that bad is bad regardless of role. Do you think they would be any better if dps wasn't the meta?

edit: Maybe I am biased since as a healer I don't see these terrible healers? I have the urge to continually queue for expert as a DPS so I can see.

[Ama_Hamada]

Alternate ways to know:
- Relative potency given full uptime and same item level
- Healer percentile enmity given heal potency dealt and tank relative enmity potency thus far
- Variance in fight duration where others' behavior is fairly consistent

Please tell me you're not also one of those Dragoons who will try to ban people for telling them to use Heavy Thrust...

EDIT: Also, the healer died because the tank aimed a one-shot non-telegraphed conal AoE at them (or lost enmity to the healer; I'll rewatch to double-check). That, after all, was the purpose of the video—to show that even MSQ dungeons have (on non-tanks) one-shot mechanics, as per Ama's reference on the quote prior? And that, in such cases, there's a large margin between healing to be done, and shit that's got nothing to do with healing.

It is a one shot move to anyone but the tank, my friend knew she was dead, and you can see this with how she reacted. She did not use saints because when she got hate, she was dead. So she simply moved wondering if being too far away was a thing, like in ffxi, then tried to heal herself hoping maybe being this far away and full hp would protect her but in the end she knew she was dead. In fact she added the extra "sloppy" audio to reflect that, that was the moment she knew she was dead. The tank lacked an enmity opener while getting hit by the gaze move allowing the healer to take the A ranking hate. You can see the hate meters and who she selects to heal even with the name blocking filters. (She believes even with reacting to that with provoke / saints, with the delay the game has, it would killed her anyway, so risking death + no saints was too great, so she held on to it, that is why she didn't saints the enmity.)

I doono about others but I find it impressive to know that much that quickly in the moment.

[Gamer3427]

I am of the opinion that bad is bad regardless of role. Do you think they would be any better if dps wasn't the meta?

edit: Maybe I am biased since as a healer I don't see these terrible healers? I have the urge to continually queue for expert as a DPS so I can see.

Don't get me wrong, some of them are just flat out bad in general. What I'm more referring to are that a fair number of times if I get a healer that DPSs at all, they go for constant DPS and spam cooldowns for actual healing sort of gameplay. It does theoretically work, but it also means that if something goes wrong, such as someone happening to get caught by an AoE, it tends to go rather south quickly because the healer can't switch out of Cleric Stance quick enough or doesn't have any cooldowns available. MCH is my main, and consequently what I use for most roulettes, and I've had more than a few times where if I didn't have potions, I'd die because the healers were too busy DPSing while I was sitting at half health or lower for 30s or so prior to an unavoidable mechanic. It's also entirely possible that I notice it more since as a MCH I don't have any self healing, (currently), other than using potions. Though I've also seen plenty of times where they'll let the tank get down to ~20% HP before switching back and popping a few cooldowns on him, or a SCH will just decide to let their fairy heal after a party wide AoE because they're in Cleric Stance. For all I know, maybe I'm just that unlucky to find all the worst types of DPS healers in the game......

[Aramina]

For all I know, maybe I'm just that unlucky to find all the worst types of DPS healers in the game......

Haha maybe! When I do 8 man content probably 80% of the time I get WHM that spam Medica2 so much that the sound makes me want to stab my eardrums, Scholars that spam succor out of range of the tank when no one is taking damage *but* the tank, and AST that won't use cards at all ever. So yeah, I know there are some awful healers out there, I just don't have experience with the ones that will dps until everyone dies.