We're all DDs now >.>

[Ama_Hamada]

We're restarting this argument again? Okay let me repeat what I said before because it seems like y'all want to play the "casuals are stupid", "raiders are also stupid" game.1) This game does not forgive stupid. If you have a bad DPS, that is because they're a bad DPS. The same goes for any other role.
2) It is not the Tank or Healer's job to DPS. If the DPS play poorly, the tank and healer can requeue faster than the DPS can.
3) Raiders ignore mechanics, casuals ignore efficiency.

The healer ran out of MP 45 seconds into the dungeon because they died. If you run out of MP as a healer, you are playing poorly, or your team is not working. The fact that this took less than 4 minutes suggests that everyone was overgeared anyhow, so I'm not sure what you are trying to impress here, that the Healer had enough opportunity to DPS, die and have no MP afterwards, or that the DPS had to raise the healer.

That is not how they design the dungeon. The dungeon has specific mechanics that you play as designed, or you leverage what you have to make it go faster/do-less-damage.
If your party is good at dodging AOE's, or taking out "object-that-will-cause-lots-of-damage", you may remember that the final boss of the Vault and the final boss of the "Brayflox Longstop hard" has the same mechanics. What do you do with Brayflox? You use any AOE to blow the bombs away, that is usually up to the healer because good gawd, someone might not follow the mechanics and get hit by multiple bombs. What do you do in the Vault? there enough time to maybe take out one of the holy flames, but it's better to just cast stoneskin or medica II because any left over will do heavy damage.

I've played both of these a few times recently, and yes players are ignoring the mechanics, sometimes in horribly stupid ways, but a good healer can actually make up for this. If you have a perfect team that dodges all the AOE's, and a tank that manages to keep hate all the time, then a healer may have that opportunity to DPS, but that is not very often, and a healer that is spending more time DPS'ing than healing either has a good team, or is playing poorly on purpose~.

This argument keeps coming back because obviously the Cleric Stance is a terrible mechanic that should have been thrown away the minute Yoshi-P became involved with V1.0. It exists to do solo content. The same with tanks stance dancing. The changes to V4.0 are clearly meant to get players to play the game as the roles they are given and not everyone be half time DPS. By removing the cleric stance mechanic, that means healers can opportunisticly use their entire toolkit, and not be force to decide if that 5 second CS switch in and out is going to flatten the party. Because good gawd why would anyone ever want to just be stuck casting Cure I, Cure II and Medica~.

The loudest complaints on the forum are from people who are playing the game wrong, know better, but complain anyway that their lazy strategy won't be as effective. So what. You know what I bet is going to happen? I bet that everyone will just keep playing the raids the way they were before, absent missing skills and they will just have to take an extra minute and play with a better strategy.

I mean really, where is the fun in facerolling over content? If you're not regularly playing the leveling queue, and playing with people of all sorts of skill levels, then you're probably just playing with static's or the FC members you actually give a care about most of the time. That's what happens in all games. There is no incentive to play with strangers outside the DF bonus tomes. So many of y'all are like "ugh, have to play with scrubs for tomes, brb" rather than actually having fun~. Like really, I've been witness to the entire "guild is full of mooches" and "guild is full of eliteists using unauthorized tools/paid others to grind for them" thing before in another game, it's quite frankly embarrassing how often you find out that supposedly good players are just lazy players who paid other people to grind for them. So I'm extremely skeptical about people who claim they are good at this game, or any game, and all this thread proved is that many people are are accusing others of the very same thing they are doing themselves.

Raiders are being jerks to casual players, casual players are being jerks to those who they also deem lazy, there's two different play styles for healer here, and the way you play the raid content is not the way you play the MSQ content or any other 4-man content. 4-man content has one healer, and if you are telling them to DPS, you are telling them to play the game as a role they did not sign up for. If you want to play MSQ/level50/level60 content like you would a raid, do everyone a favor and use your static to play the dungeon instead of trying to convince casual players they are bad.

A bad player does not get through content except by being carried. That is why I said looking at achievements or gear proves absolutely nothing, if you are looking at that then you're only looking for some argument ad hominem instead of trying to disprove the argument. I can make the same statement that anyone using a parser for any reason is cheating. Thus the only way you would know if the healer DPS counts is by cheating.

Hence reductio ad absurdum. Anyone who says healer DPS matters must therefor be cheating~!

So no, I don't see what you're trying to prove here Ama.

I knew you where clueless, but not that clueless. Healers DPS to do something, I do not get your point in this post. Can you even see why the healer died? it was even hinted at with adding the extra sloppy audio. The tank had NO clue what they where doing, bad opener, the only people DOING DPS WAS THE HEALER AND SMN! has nothing to do with over gear or this or that. Knowing how to manage mp and knowing what you can do also is a factor. You did notice she was still dpsing even though mp was low from the bad tank letting her die yes? If you can't see why she was playing like that and KNOWING she could, I do not know what else to say other then you don't know what you are talking about. Yes this again because you want to say healing DPS is a myth.

Even with your wall of text I do not know how you missed the basic point? even with the bad tank and mnk, the healer still dps a large amount of the time. The fight saw 2 healing collars, that is how bad the tank and mnk where. If everyone was top gear + skill, he dies on sometime on the first wave of spears where you get LB, having him sit on 70% hp or w/e that point is a joke. 4/4 skilled members vs 2/4 and 2 dead weights is a big difference. This is why the dev team said there is a huge skill gap to begin with. (I seen i270 geared people see 2 waves of spear as well, that shouldn't happen, skill gap is huge)

Now explain again why you feel healers have no room to dps and is a myth?

"Raiders are being jerks to casual players, casual players are being jerks to those who they also deem lazy, there's two different play styles for healer here"

The reverse happens as well, in fact more often and even happened last night. Know nothing PLD harassed my black mage friend over "pressing too many buttons" because the PLD could not hold hate off her despite using quelling strikes. The PLD and the premade friend kept going at her talking about how she should stop casting because they do not know how to play. I see unskilled doing more harassing then the skilled ones, esp when it comes to weekends. (Maybe this is how SE noticed the skill gap?)

[KisaiTenshi]

Now explain again why you feel healers have no room to dps and is a myth?

*eyeroll*

1) The dungeons and raids are designed to be played with the roles you signed up for. Tank, Healer, DPS.
2) The dungeons and raids can be completed with everyone having the minimum ilevel. That might be hard. They would not design something to be impossible, so clearly the dev team can do it.
3) If you're playing the roles exactly as prescribed, then those duties go by fairly quickly.
4) The only way to know what the healer, or anyone's DPS is by violating the game's TOS with unauthorized tools.

So. There is no requirement, nor has there ever been a requirement for healers or tanks to DPS assuming the minimum level/ilevel is met, nor has there been a requirement not to. Now obviously there are ways of fudging this like tanks wearing DPS gear or healers wearing caster gear that has the wrong secondary values on them, and that is likely not something tested for.

As content ages, people become overleveled, so level sync gives players playing lower level content too much of a leg up. Same with gear. All the challenge is sucked out of the game when wearing the highest ilevel gear makes it a faceroll.

I'm pretty sure you, or anyone else doesn't spend 40 consecutive days playing every combination of job and dungeon just so they remember how to do it on that job~. No I'm pretty sure most players play just one or two jobs and the rest is just was just for achievements/bragging rights and were never actually played at the minimum ilevel.

[missybee]

*eyeroll*

I think y'all might make more progress talking to a literal brick wall.

That being said, even at minimum ilevel, there should be down time for healers. Maybe not during large pulls, but at the VERY least during bosses. No one is asking to be carried by healers. We just want everyone in the party to contribute equally.

With regard to needing a parser to know whether or not the healer is attempting to DPS - what even?

It isn't a secret when healers are casting and/or they go into Cleric Stance. Even come 4.0 with the Cleric Stance changes, we can still see their cast bars and rocks hitting the mobs.

[Aramina]

I think y'all might make more progress talking to a literal brick wall.

It's less about talking to Kisai and more about talking around her to people that may actually listen to that garbage and not know any better.

[Lambdafish]

It's less about talking to Kisai and more about talking around her to people that may actually listen to that garbage and not know any better.

This is the thing that worries me. Stupid is just annoying when isolated, however stupid becomes dangerous when there is a possibility of it being listened to.

[Ama_Hamada]

It's less about talking to Kisai and more about talking around her to people that may actually listen to that garbage and not know any better.

This, I said something like this to someone in the horror story thread too. I said something on the likes of why didn't you tell the person off saying you where not healing when you where doing all the healing and still dps here and there? the answer was something on the lines of "they would not listen anyway" so my reply to that was "It does not matter, the goal of saying something is not for that one person, but the other 6 there. If you said something, it is very unlikely they would kick you. Sometimes people follow others for no reason and easily manipulated."

[Aramina]

this is all because of WoW players who crept into FF14

The game that doesn't require, encourage, or have nearly as much downtime as here causes this?* You are going to have to explain your logic on that one.

*Outside Mythic raiding and/or Mythic+ dungeons.

This, I said something like this to someone in the horror story thread too. I said something on the likes of why didn't you tell the person off saying you where not healing when you where doing all the healing and still dps here and there? the answer was something on the lines of "they would not listen anyway" so my reply to that was "It does not matter, the goal of saying something is not for that one person, but the other 6 there. If you said something, it is very unlikely they would kick you. Sometimes people follow others for no reason and easily manipulated."

Yep. Aditionally, if you don't stand up for yourself they may well think whatever the other person said was true. :P

[KisaiTenshi]

I think y'all might make more progress talking to a literal brick wall.

That being said, even at minimum ilevel, there should be down time for healers. Maybe not during large pulls, but at the VERY least during bosses. No one is asking to be carried by healers. We just want everyone in the party to contribute equally.

With regard to needing a parser to know whether or not the healer is attempting to DPS - what even?

It isn't a secret when healers are casting and/or they go into Cleric Stance. Even come 4.0 with the Cleric Stance changes, we can still see their cast bars and rocks hitting the mobs.

OH REALLY~?

So tell me how these so called "I have more DPS as a healer than the DPS characters" people are keeping track of these numbers then? Are they frame-by-frame counting everything they see while playing the dungeon they are recording? Absolute nonsense. There is a website out there that people have been using to log their parsers, and they are not shy about using them.

The cleric stance or rocks hitting the mobs doesn't tell you anything about zero-cast's like benediction, assize and tetra, or anything swiftcast'd. It's easy to tell when the healer is doing healing because half the things they can do are HoT's and have indications that hey are active. You don't know if they threw Stone III once or 20 times during that encounter unless you were parsing it.

So please, all the people I see arguing for healers to DPS and bragging about how good they are at it, are almost guaranteed to be using parsers.

[Lambdafish]

snip

As a tank myself, I think I know when a healers heals hit me, and as the regen is placed on...... me, I kinda know which HoTs are being used and how much downtime the healer has. I know what heals they do because I watch them. I don't have a parser, especially when I play on my PS4, and I still know what you are doing, funny that.

Your replies are getting more and more hilarious, keep it up :P


Edit: forgot to mention that all abilities, even bene, tetra, and assize have animations, its not hard to work out, especially when the it is being used on me.

[Kitfox]

The cleric stance or rocks hitting the mobs doesn't tell you anything about zero-cast's like benediction, assize and tetra, or anything swiftcast'd. It's easy to tell when the healer is doing healing because half the things they can do are HoT's and have indications that hey are active. You don't know if they threw Stone III once or 20 times during that encounter unless you were parsing it.

Stone 3 has a castbar. And just like HoTs, the Aeros also have DoT timers. Holy, Assize and Aero III are pretty hard to miss just because the animations are massive. While the exact number might be hard to tell, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between zero and something.

It's much harder to tell what the DPS classes are doing, especially melee, although you can still follow their buff management. Healers and Casters are easy because of the castbars.