Was anyone else disappointed in RDM? anyone?

[Duelle]

Yeah im not sure how its a turret. after a cast, the next cast will be instant, and can also proc another instant cast behindit. With swiftcast, you can have a possible 4 instant cast, and you can move during all of them, as well as follow up with a gap closer, and a bunch of melee attacks, and THEN back out of that.

That's like claiming BLM is not a turret because of firestarter and thundercloud procs. In addition to swiftcast and triple cast.

The job is a turret 90% of the time. The remaining 10% is composed of "dash in, spend 3 GCDs in melee and then jump out". And that's largely due to how slowly mana is generated and how the sword skills and the spells don't interact (using a melee attack removes chainspell, for example).

[MomomiMomi]

That's like claiming BLM is not a turret because of firestarter and thundercloud procs. In addition to swiftcast and triple cast.

That's not really similar since they can do it after every cast, not based on chance.

I wasn't aware this had been confirmed, rather than just being speculated upon. That's very encouraging, thank you. Hopefully this and lots of other (supportive) white magic are nicely integrated into the package as a whole, not just tacked on.

To be fair the cure/raise is speculation, but it's fairly well founded speculation. A 3600 MP cost spell that looks like Raise? It's probably Raise. The other spell's icon looks like Cure.

[RaijinSupreme]

That's like claiming BLM is not a turret because of firestarter and thundercloud procs. In addition to swiftcast and triple cast.

The job is a turret 90% of the time. The remaining 10% is composed of "dash in, spend 3 GCDs in melee and then jump out". And that's largely due to how slowly mana is generated and how the sword skills and the spells don't interact (using a melee attack removes chainspell, for example).

I'm not making any arguments for BLM. its by chance that you get a thundercloud proc. The regular rotation for BLM without considering chances for procs will require the blm to stand still for each of its cast, so if we wanna call it a turret because of that, sure.

Its not by chance that you get an instant cast for every cast for Red Mage. Its a chance that you get a second instant cast, and it doesn't need to be the same spell. That always guaranteed instant cast already makes he 50% more mobile than a BLM.

and its not even known that having black/white mana is required for performing the melee attacks. It could be the black/white mana just makes the melee attack do greater damage when the points are spent, seeing as yoshi-p did say having them balanced makes the attacks stronger. all we've seen in detail was the job action trailer, which we all not is not indicative of a viable rotation, or fully shows what each of the abilities actually do. I'm sure we haven't even see all the abilities.


ACTUALLY, I just rewatched the Live Letter when Yoshi-P was playing as the Red Mage, and at 1:40:30, he used a melee skill (the one in the bottom left corner) and it didn't spend any of the mana points he had accumulated (he was at 10/30 before he used the skill, and it stayed there). His auto attack was also a sword swing. The melee skill did remove the chainspell, but it would be kinda OP if it didn't. It seems like the spellblade, probably the more powerful melee attacks, are the ones that spend the mana, and maybe can only be used after reaching a certain threshhold.

All in all, it seems to be a lot more to the job than just stand here, and don't move. But you know, I honestly didn't want to have this kind of conversation in this thread. So im going back to trolling and imitating the salt.

[Blueyes]

ACTUALLY, I just rewatched the Live Letter when Yoshi-P was playing as the Red Mage, and at 1:40:30, he used a melee skill (the one in the bottom left corner) and it didn't spend any of the mana points he had accumulated.

This is correct. White and black mana are not requirements for executing weaponskills. Moreover, Chainspell appears to enhance the effect of a weaponskill which wasn't elaborated on. The Chainspell buff was consumed and the weaponskill was accompanied by a large fiery attack. The same weaponskill is used during the Job Actions video, supposedly without Chainspell in effect, and the fiery bonus damage was nowhere to be seen. Point is, the use of weaponskills aren't as limited as people think and there may be other specific Spellblade interacts we have yet to witness.

Coincidentally, when Riposte is used, and Chainspell is consumed, it would seem the off screen Ninja used the new Frog summon ability at the same moment.

[RaijinSupreme]

This is correct. White and black mana are not requirements for executing weaponskills. Moreover, Chainspell appears to enhance the effect of a weaponskill which wasn't elaborated on. The Chainspell buff was consumed and the weaponskill was accompanied by a large fiery attack. The same weaponskill is used during the Job Actions video, supposedly without Chainspell in effect, and the fiery bonus damage was nowhere to be seen. Point is, the use of weaponskills aren't as limited as people think and there may be other specific Spellblade interacts we have yet to witness.

OH! I didn't even notice that! that chainspell did buff the weapon attack! thats really cool lol. Yeah this job is becoming more and more interesting!

[Duelle]

Red Mage was mostly always casting spells from range in other Final Fantasy Games serving as either the sub-Black Mage or Sub-White Mage until the player could obtain a actual decent Black Mage or White Mage character to replace the Red Mage.

As I've said before, this is was due to the limits of turn-based combat. There's little else you can do with a job like RDM in turn-based combat. Hence why gimmicks like Doublecast had to be invented. Almost every mechanic that makes a hybrid shine does not work in turn-based games.

This is correct. White and black mana are not requirements for executing weaponskills.

I don't think anyone can claim the sword skills cannot be used on their own. The issue is that doing so is very likely to be suboptimal (because of how enhancements and spellblade activating past 30/30 seems to work). Which means if you're using sword skills as more than mana dumps, you're no different than an ice mage.

Moreover, Chainspell appears to enhance the effect of a weaponskill which wasn't elaborated on. The Chainspell buff was consumed and the weaponskill was accompanied by a large fiery attack.

The fiery attack is most likely Katon, since on the minimap you can see the NIN that's Yoshida's companion running well within range while staying out of camera. After Katon(?) hits, they run away from Yoshida towards the FATE taking place northeast of him.

I'd say all using that melee attack did is drop the Chainspell effect, which is no different than breaking a combo.

[EdwinLi]

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I understand you are in a state of disappointment that the Mage using a Sword does not use the Sword as a Melee Weapon but maybe it is best to first step back from seeing Sword as something that should only be used for Melee combat.

As you stated here

Since people are bringing up their grievances or mentioning their lack of affinity for RDM, I'll start with the most glaring problem: it's a ranged caster with a sword. Their decision to implement it as such is mind-boggling when you take into account how other MMOs have done battle-mages/melee-casters/hybrids (because FFXIV supposedly looked to its contemporaries for ideas and inspiration) in addition to 5 years of suggestions and feedback.

which as common it is to use something such as Sword as a Melee Weapon there is movement away from treating certain weapons as their generic use people expect them to be due to how they were treated in the past.

Guild Wars 2 is the most common exception we see today that has begun to treated weapons in unique ways originally not seen in past RPGs such as how Mesmer, a mage type class, use a Greatsword for Range combat weapon treating the Greatsword as a focus for their Range Magic attacks. The Staff is also being used more as a melee weapon now when it is most commonly a weapon used by Mages though commonly only see by Martial Art Classes they are expanding beyond just Martial Art classes for use. There is even the use of Axe for the Necromancer as a mid-range weapon as well that slash the enemy with magic spells.

For me I expect the RDM to be a Range type using the sword for Range Magic attacks such as Magic Slash waves with the off-hand that did not use the sword to be where the RDM casted the basic magic spells not related to the sword. However, that concept was not what we got.

What i am mostly saying is expectation for what Red Mage "should have been" can damage what the actual experience of the Job itself at a personal level and not a community level. You wanted a pure melee magic attack user with only small amount of range attacks and I wanted a pure Range user that uses the Sword in a unqiue way by using the sword as the focus for Range Magic attacks but neither of us got what we wanted because we are not the one developing the content. However, this does not have to ruin the experience of the gameplay itself and sometimes things may not be as bad as we think it may be just because it did not meet our own expectations.

[Duelle]

but maybe it is best to first step back from seeing Sword as something that should only be used for Melee combat.

This...makes very little sense. A sword is used for close-range combat. That's basically what they're there for.

which as common it is to use something such as Sword as a Melee Weapon there is movement away from treating certain weapons as their generic use people expect them to be due to how they were treated in the past.

Call me a traditionalist, but melee weapons are there to be used to hit the enemy. If you're not using them as such (see: Revelation Online's Swordmage), you're just wasting code and assets on what is essentially an accessory.

You also seem to be trying to push the notion of uniqueness for its own sake, which is a flawed viewpoint because in the end, a design can be as unique as can be while still being shitsubpar.

You wanted a pure melee magic attack user with only small amount of range attacks and I wanted a pure Range user that uses the Sword in a unqiue way by using the sword as the focus for Range Magic attacks but neither of us got what we wanted because we are not the one developing the content.

Fair enough. As I've said before, though, I reserve the right to criticize what gets implemented and the right to voice my displeasure.