Mandatory Combos

[Ogulbuk]

Why are we even allowed to execute some abilities outside of a combo? There is no benefit of using Main or Storm Eye if they are not ready. Their out of combo raw potency, potency per second and potency per TP are a disaster. The only reason to even allow me to use combo actions outside a combo seems to be a developer cosmic joke on uninformed players.

Can we just make these mandatory? For example, can we make the use of Maim require Heavy Swing had been used before?

If one of the goals in Stormblood is to narrow the gap between skilled and unskilled players, I think a good first start would be to limit how players can cripple their rotations. They still will need to know not to throw something like a Fracture mid combo, but at least that is something that may be considered a solid reason to break a combo.

Or maybe someone can illuminate me of any situation where I would want to use a combo action outside a combo?

[Aladire]

I am sorry if this looks like a thread redirect or hijacking, but this questions is being discussed here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-see-it-in-PVE

The concept of consolidating the combos is the same thing as locking out abilities like you discussed, but with 1 added thing and that is to have 1 button to press instead of multiple.

[zXr]

Simplified systems lead to automation, aside from that taking away the 'choice' to mess up and still do some amount of damage or mess up and freak out that you stopped doing damage...or realize it after the wipe because you are a 1h playing fool!

But hey they could implement a 'shame bunny' variant for all jobs!

[Shurrikhan]

Simplified systems lead to automation, aside from that taking away the 'choice' to mess up and still do some amount of damage or mess up and freak out that you stopped doing damage...or realize it after the wipe because you are a 1h playing fool!

But hey they could implement a 'shame bunny' variant for all jobs!

Simplified systems =/= intuitive systems. The OP's aim seems to more closely resemble the latter. Removing absolute false choices does not simplify a system. It just puts up fewer (even if minor) roadblocks.

If the "combo" skills had reason to be used out of combo, and then we removed that ability, then such would impair or outright cripple gameplay surrounding those abilities. But there is no such reason. Each combo is in itself one decision, essentially one ability. There's nothing loss in making its controls follow its design.

Now, I'd rather each skill be usable separately with varying synergies that allow for various strategic "open" combos, but short of that, why reject an intuitive system for what's actually being given. Are we too in love with the concept that we're given multiple skills even while hesitant to have any additional thought or strategy expected of us as to make use of them? If combos work for you, that's the design. The rest is just making the UI actually fit, rather than hinting at something more and being unwilling to provide it -- almost with mocking contempt.

So you want the game to become a mindless button masher?

How is 1, 2, 3; 1, 4, 5; 1, 4, 6 any less mindless than 1, 1, 1; 1, 2, 1; 1, 2, 2?

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

I have no issue handling every key on my three bars. With my Caps turned into a Right Alt, it's even nearly comfortable. The issue is future proofing and, frankly, that the option is obvious given how the skills are currently treated in game. True Thrust is not a separate decision from Full Thrust. Once you've started the chain, you complete the chain. So how does it warrant 4 keys to do 1 function (pure DMG + 15s BotD)?

It's a matter of future-proofing. Unless SE wants to cut out even more skills that DO actually have tactical weight or decisions behind them, our bars are going to fill up, and the amount of binds will become uncomfortable to access all of—not in Stormblood, and, if they skimp on raw ability count, not even the expansion after. But it will happen. So why would you not take the opportunity to remove redundancies? Is Warrior made more interesting for having to use two different slots for Fell Cleave and Inner Beast (unless one wishes to macro them)?

In the brief example I gave, you go from 1-6 to 1 & 2 being used, for the exact SAME spread of abilities, and the SAME number of possible choices accessible at each juncture. How does taking up another 4 buttons at all times without them ever being usable at all times increase complexity? By your view, every Monk must already be mentally impaired, because (OH NO!!!) they can't actually flub 2/3s the amount of skills you can. And guess what? They at least have a skill that makes all their weaponskills simultaneously available. No one else does.

tl;dr

Why? Button bloat.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

How is 1, 2, 3; 1, 4, 5; 1, 4, 6 any less mindless than 1, 1, 1; 1, 2, 1; 1, 2, 2?

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

[Welsper59]

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

Basically this. I don't think people understand how their suggestions are pretty much a regurgitation of the same thing they have criticism for. I'm guessing it's because it's their idea, therefore it somehow functions differently lol. I don't think their point is that it's hard, just that it's what they see as unnecessary. For the same reason that they think it's unnecessary though, the contrary of it is not even remotely needed. To realize that though, people need to take a step back and view their suggestion as an outsider (objectively). If the devs feel the need to change it, fine. If they don't, fine. It's a non issue being promoted as though it were game changing.

[Mholito]

If they are so mindless why even ask for a change? All I'm seeing is another thread asking for a solution to a nonissue because some people are apparently so mindless that they can't even string together combos as they currently are. Let's just allow bots because that's where this line of thinking ultimately leads. "Oh em gee I can't press so many buttons for combos, why can't we just have one button to press so I can keep picking my nose while I play??" 5.0 rolls around "OH EM JAY pressing 1 button is HAAARD, let us use bots so I can watch my little pony while the game clears savage for me!!"

Please delete thread.

Even with consolidated combos, it isn't gonna make you do good dps. You'd still have the same amount of skills to use, and you'd still have to know when to use them in order to maximise dps. It also isn't gonna use your abilities for you.
Sure, random "You-don't-pay-my-sub" dps number 5819 might end up doing 1000 dps instead of the 200 he did before, but that's still not gonna compare to the 4000 dps done by those that know how to play their job. Meanwhile, it's also gonna free up hotbar space, which means people can pack their skills closer together, so they won't need to do some weird finger gymnastics to reach rarely used skills anymore, and the extra space leaves room open for adding more interesting skills in the future.

[Vespar]

Part of the reason I love XIV is that what I press matters and sets me apart from another job w/ the same gear! Its not just a mindless zergfest! You actually have to think about where and when to use your actions. A good many of the people who mess up or dont perform combos correctly do so because they dont READ their tooltips and set up their bar accordingly or they just dont pay attention and mash buttons..

And while we're on a similar subject, if we make it so that actions execute in succession just by mashing the same button over and over again (like they intend to do with PvP), I feel like the 'fun' would get sucked out of it.

If they took away the ability to correctly or incorrectly perform combos, I would lose interest. Their wouldnt be any challenge in it. "Just mash a button whenever you want! it wont matter!"
NO! I want the CHOICE of how I play and I try to play well because I don't want to be a run of the mill player.
Shorten the core vs casual playing field if they must, but don't make us cookie cutters of everyone else!

[Ogulbuk]

Part of the reason I love XIV is that what I press matters and sets me apart from another job w/ the same gear! Its not just a mindless zergfest! You actually have to think about where and when to use your actions. A good many of the people who mess up or dont perform combos correctly do so because they dont READ their tooltips and set up their bar accordingly or they just dont pay attention and mash buttons..

If they took away the ability to correctly or incorrectly perform combos, I would lose interest. Their wouldnt be any challenge in it. "Just mash a button whenever you want! it wont matter!"
NO! I want the CHOICE of how I play and I try to play well because I don't want to be a run of the mill player.
Shorten the core vs casual playing field if they must, but don't make us cookie cutters of everyone else!

Being able to follow a glowie ant trail on your icons don't really make you that great at deciding what you are doing either, so don't try patting yourself that well on the back for that.

Having actions require combo status to even activate still does not mean you don't get to chose what else you do next, especially if combo system was expanded with it. Multiple combos with multiple situational usage would make combo chain selection an actual choice. Allowing players to use the third step of a combo for just 100 potency with no benefit is just terrible game design.

Either it should be mandatory, or there should be some benefit from doing so (fewer aspects of the action tied to combo action requirements.)

[Vespar]

Having actions require combo status to even activate still does not mean you don't get to chose what else you do next, especially if combo system was expanded with it. Multiple combos with multiple situational usage would make combo chain selection an actual choice. Allowing players to use the third step of a combo for just 100 potency with no benefit is just terrible game design.

Combo actions that enable based off various conditions are there for a reason. Its part of the way that most jobs function. And yes, they do require some THOUGHT on the part of the user, and they can be what makes one player differ from another. Not just in terms of dmg, but also in play styles.

As Bard, I could apply Straight shot which lasts for 20 secs. If it procs right away and Straighter Shot becomes available, I could choose to toss it out right away to do the extra dmg or I could choose to wait until my buff is close to going down to refresh it when I need to rather than having to recast straight shot which takes more time. That's up to me to decide.

Or take BLM... Firestarter is a huge deal for BLM and its a fundamental part of how BLM is meant to be played. In the later levels, casting Fire can cause 'firestarter' to proc which allows an instant casted Fire3 and equates to more dmg. If we were to just remove firestarter altogether BLM's would be forced to just spam cast Fire 3 over and over without the benefit of an instant ability that they could use for more dmg, or hold onto for a second and use in case they know they are going to have to move, etc...

My point is those combo-enabled actions & abilities exist for a purpose already. They have added benefits, you just have to think about what they are. If you cant figure out the right way to use them, then thats on you!