#RIPRDM

[Hyrist]

It's also been speculated that these melee skills are simply augmented by the balanced mana system, not restricted. So, while it will likely be viewed on par with an 'ice mage' Red Mages will still likely be able to predominately swing their sword if they're really desperate for that sort of interaction.

Kidding aside, I'm willing to give Duelle's bitterness a bit of leeway. Not because his expectations are standard, mind you, but he has been quite invested in a particular mental image of Red Mage for a very, very long time now - and to see a decade's long dream dashed would naturally make anyone upset.

However, I will point out that the majority of the people are correct here. Red Mage was primarily magical balanced first, physical second in its history, and I do agree with the general feeling that this fairly well depicts that.

As far as the frequency of diving in and out of Melee range and the build-up of mana reserves - those are numbers arguments and can be tweaked over time. It's the concept that needed review mostly and it looks both attractive and logically sound.

lvl27cubone on Reddit has confirmed a lot of my theories stated above through his analysis of skills. Here's the thread for reference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mage_analysis/

It's also noted that the Status that buffs our mana is 35 seconds, and the dive in is 40 Seconds, so my guess is for optimal rotation we will likely be standing in mid range and have to manually walk in occasionally on every other rotation to combo, depending on how quickly we can get those stacks gathered.

[Duelle]

It means that gameplay will be more than just standing at range spamming spells most of the time, since there will be huge opportunity to weave plenty of additional ogcd effects between casts for a very fast paced playstyle. BLMs are turrets because they don't have time to do anything but stand there and cast. RDM will not be standing there just spamming spells and nothing else. And even if it does end up to be just standing there during the spell part of the rotation.

The only oGCDs I can think of would be Contre de Sixte, which is AoE and has a cooldown. Procs don't turn spells into oGCDs. Melee skills are on the GCD and can't be weaved in because you lose Chainspell if you do (not to mention you won't be in range to use them anyway).

The BRD comparison doesn't hold water, because despite the whole "1.5s casts means I can move more than a BLM" claim, you were still standing in one spot and spamming casts. Hell, half of the arguments belittling the people that hated WM were based on "well BRD doesnt get to run like an idiot while attacking too", acknowledging that the job doesn't get to move like it used to. Having a slightly easier time dodging telegraphs did not negate the fact that WM turned BRD into a turret, and by the same vein RDM is looking to play as one.

We need to build ~80 mana in each type to be able to unleash 3 melee attacks according to the video. It takes 2 gcd to build 20 mana, so that's ~16 gcd without the use of any cooldowns. We then unleash 5 gcd worth of melee and leaping rapier attacks.

Not with the way Chainspell works. This is why Jolt seems to be a very important part of the set up for Chainspell, since Jolt => Val Aero/Val Thunder means you're getting 12/3 mana per 2 GCDs. The only way you'd get 20 mana in 2 GCDs (not to mention skip using Jolt as a set up) would be if you get a proc to allow Val Fire or Val Stone to be cast.

And that's two GCDs spent getting in and out of the front line, with three GCDs doing actual swordplay.

That's a ratio of ~25% melee to 37.5% black magic and 37.5% white magic. With the use of the cooldown as shown in the video we only need to build up ~40 mana in each type taking ~8 gcd to do so, so the balance is ~38% melee to 31% black magic and 31% white magic.

Unless the cooldown on the double mana ability is 30 seconds or lower, you can't really count on it in the middle of a rotation. And even using your numbers, that 75% spamming spells, 25% using the sword. With numbers like that, the use of the sword might as well not be there; you'd probably get more bang for your buck replacing that with a three-step Ultima spell and saved yourself the 2 GCDs spent to dash in and out of melee range.

That they're not doing them simultaneously while in melee appears to be your biggest hangup. To be honest it sounds like you actually want a rune fencer/magic knight with the degree of emphasis you are placing on being in melee. Your melee rdm suggestion from your signature certainly reads like a magic knight with it's emphasis on weapon en-spells and exploiting them.

A mystic knight doesn't have much beyond just casting spells through their swords. Concept-wise, they're a very shallow idea that managed to work in the older FFs because job system = classes are designed as one-trick ponies.

Enspells are actually a callback to FFXI's RDM, and I'd be lying if I denied that I really liked the idea behind them. Those spells in concept are supposed to be the RDM trying to close the gap in attack power, since a RDM is obviously going to have less base STR and attack power compared to a fighter. If a musclehead fighter is dealing 100 damage per swing, a RDM with an enspell up was supposed to come close to that; the damage would just be split between their clearly inferior physical power plus the effects from the sword enchant. This largely didn't work in XI because they went crazy with how resists and magic accuracy worked, and that the devs purposely made enspells scale terribly didn't help, but it was a solid idea and a very good step forward for RDM (the same goes for Phalanx). I'd go as far as saying that Enspells (and Phalanx) do a great job emphasizing the hybrid nature of RDM.

Anyway, regardless of your opinion, the design is not going to change significantly from what is coming apart from number tweaking, so your choice is either to learn to enjoy it (or at least not hate it) or to wallow in bitterness and disappointment.

Who says I'm trying to change the design? This thing has been in development for more than a year now, so the devs have committed to it. While I understand that some will take to it because it's better than being a refreshbot, try to keep in mind that some of us (because it's not just me; I just happen to run my mouth more than others) are allowed to be disappointed after 5 years of suggestions and feedback yielded next to nothing. My path is laid out before me, and that does include criticizing what has been presented.

Have a good day.

[Hyrist]

Duelle, this talk of "next to nothing" talk is hyperbole and you know it. Having something not meet your exact expectation and being disappointing in it is your entitlement - the warping of the facts is not.

Red Mage did not exist in this game. It did not HAVE to exist in this game. The fact that it does at all is a testimate to fan demand. This has already been outright said by Yoshida on multiple occasions.

Sorry, but your expectations (and the expectations of those you claim back you up) were out of line. Red Mage has never been a Melee DPS. Mystic Knight/Sorcerer fit those by being front-line casters. Red Mage was always the hybrid who leaned caster more than melee, but often could benefit their melee from their casting.

What we got just that. That's not nothing. That's something; Something potentially great. I'm sorry you're disappointed in it but just because you don't agree with the course something takes does not amount it to 'nothing'. That's a very selfish perspective, and insulting to the work done here.

And... if nothing else. Take this little gem into consideration - A Red Mage's Mana Management hasn't been fully explained yet. Even so, with the new Mana Shift Role ability, it could very well become a reality when a Red Mage gets the privilege of receiving Mana from a Black Mage and Summoner - which for me is a bit of poetic justice for all those years being spent as a Mana battery.

It's time to hang up the worries and give the job a spin for yourself - see if its playstyle is something you can enjoy first hand. If not, ceste la ve.

[Sarynth]

I remember leveling red mage back in 2007 and going to town with my sword and spells. Then level 41 hit and I got shoved in the backline as just some mana battery. I'm absolutely loving how ffxiv's red mage is turning out as it fits the image of a mage that can blend magic and sword for an offensive playstyle.

[Duelle]

Sorry, but your expectations were out of line. Red Mage has never been a Melee DPS. Mystic Knight/Sorcerer fit those by being front-line casters. Red Mage was always the hybrid who leaned caster more than melee, but often could benefit their melee from their casting.

Again, a job that was split three-way between black magic, white magic, and sword vs a job who only existed to cast spells through swords. Mystic Knight had to be changed considerably in order to become Rune Fencer in FFXI, which is testament to how shallow the idea behind it is and why you can't compare them to RDM.

I'm guessing you ignored my earlier point, so I'll reiterate: you got more out of having a RDM cast spells because turn-based combat 1) forces the player to use turns as efficiently as possible, and 2) lacks mechanics that tie physical and magic attacks to one another. The mechanical limits RDM has in those games are notable, and I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that.

I'm sorry you're disappointed in it but just because you don't agree with the course something takes does not amount it to 'nothing'. That's a very selfish perspective, and insulting to the work done here.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Much like the average man, the developers are not above criticism, regardless of the work they put into a design.

And I say that as someone who has praised them when appropriate.

[Khalithar]

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Duelle. Let me say that I would have preferred rdm to be more melee focused as well and I fully agree with your right to criticize what has been presented. But let me offer this:

Let's wait and see if rdm has any other melee based attacks first as we don't know every single ability it has in its arsenal and we shouldn't take the brief showcase as an example of everything.

Secondly, it's always possible that if the community makes enough noise and complains enough they'll change the design. Brd and Mch losing their cast times is proof of that. I certainly plan to advocate for more melee abilities if it's as limited as it appears on paper.

[Hyrist]

I didn't miss your point. I ignored it because it was so poorly thought out. Let's debunk quickly.

1) forces the player to use turns as efficiently as possible.

That's what a Rotation is - using your 'turns' in this case, your global cool-downs, most effectively as possible.

2) lacks mechanics that tie physical and magic attacks to one another.

That's what "Casting Spells with Swords" does. I'm beginning to doubt your experience with Final Fantasy extends much past Final Fantasy XI. In their quintessential incarnation, Final Fantasy V, Mystic Knight's spells added magical damage to the physical attack calculation (additionally adding an additional animation to the attack command) this could be combine with any other job action combination that involved base physical attack, such as Charge and Dance, which some pretty well known moves were conceived from doing. It is also the same basis from which Enspells and the Runes Runefencer utilizes.

It should be noted that the very same game is the one that debuts Red Mage's most defining trait - Dualcast, which has evolved into Chainspell over time. It also, in the same game, allowed cross class functions, which meant Red Mage could utilize its balanced physical and magical skills to use the Mystic Knight's power to decent effect, but there were far better ways to stack stats.

The mechanical limits RDM has in those games are notable, and I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that.

Except they're really not - Not any more than any other class in those games, including Mystic Knight. It was the statistical limitations to the class that put it as second tier, and by design, as the game wanted you to experiment with classes and come about combinations that you found more effective. Red Mage at that point could be seen as an earlier form to other classes and combinations (Not that it couldn't also be used to become a powerhouse on it's own, there were just easier exploits.)

And those limitations are irrelevant to the actual premise of your argument, which is to say that Red Mage should be more like Mystic Knight.

And I say that as someone who has praised them when appropriate.

I challenge that. I'd say you praise them when you agree with them. That's not 'when appropriate' so much as when it fits your own bias. The entire basis of your disappointment was centered off of an unfounded expectation, and a misconstruction of which end of the archetype Red Mage fell on.Worse, you delve into hyperbole in the process. That's not being critical. That's being both misleading and insulting.

You're using criticism as a form of attack in this sense, not as a form of critique, they're two different uses for the same word. While the first is 'feedback' in the most general sense, it's often going to get lost if it isn't backed by mass numbers or sound critiquing, of which I see none of either.

Duelle. Let me say that I would have preferred rdm to be more melee focused as well and I fully agree with your right to criticize what has been presented. But let me offer this:

Let's wait and see if rdm has any other melee based attacks first as we don't know every single ability it has in its arsenal and we shouldn't take the brief showcase as an example of everything.

Secondly, it's always possible that if the community makes enough noise and complains enough they'll change the design. Brd and Mch losing their cast times is proof of that. I certainly plan to advocate for more melee abilities if it's as limited as it appears on paper.

Presented as pure preference - this is fair.

I would recommend putting that effort into something that will gain more traction. I'm all for more physical abilities on Red Mage, but changing the class to essentially a front line DPS is not going to happen. It's on a much larger scale than taking Cast times off of Ranged Physical DPS. You're asking them to change the very category Red Mage has been slotted into - Ranged Magic DPS.

If you're looking for a more melee orientated front line Magic-Physical attacker, you have another class to root for in order to fit that better, Mystic Knight. To which I want to put a point - why NOT Mystic Knight? Is it the imagery?

[Khalithar]

Snip

1/2 cause I can't edit on mobile.

Note I am only going to reply to the per directed at me obviously.

Now I don't necessarily know about changing rdm to a frontline dps, given the fact it wears casting armor I think that boat has already sailed. So no I wasn't arguing to turn rdm in to a front liner type, my fault if it seemed that way.

Anyway! What I'm saying is give rdm more melee abilities. Assuming that three hit combo is all it has, why not add some extra oGcd melee attacks to weave in during that time? How about a ranged move where they throw the sword at the target and blast the sword with lightning? How about adding an extra 2-3 combo that builds up SOME mana after your mana spend combo then have you jump out to build the majority with spells? Am I conveying my point better? Honestly I'm asking.

[Khalithar]

2/2 as far as mystic knight goes my answer is a bit simpler. We already have the tank that does magic and melee (drk) and we have the dps with magic and melee (rdm) now. I don't think the devs would want to add another one.

[Hyrist]

-Snip-

We kinda already have the 'throw your sword' skill in the two skills where Red Mage effectively launches a series of blades in a single target and aoe attack respectively. We also don't know if our current existing setup does result in Mana returned. But all of these suggestions aren't bad suggestions, they just have to be balanced with what is going on with the Job as a whole, and we do not have the complete picture. There's just off the cuff judging going on about it. We're at level 70 with what will likely get 30 more - so these are great suggestions for say the far off future when skills do get fully revised. I expect more number's tweaking and minor adjustments through the 4.xx series. We also have both gap closer and gap opener off global cooldowns.

As far as Dark Knight goes - that's more akin to Paladin in dichotomy than Red Mage. We don't have any magic based front-line DPS, which will likely be one of the next steps in the job release process. Right now we're equally balanced in the roles if you split them between primary stat (Vit Based, Str Based, Dex Based, Int Based, Mnd Based) at 3 a piece. Which means we may have about five more jobs total to go, if they intend to ultimately maintain this balance. Mystic Knight fits the bill, though, in some regards so does Blue Mage - who has been seen more as the class that casts physical spells. This may fall in line with the motif because a STR based Frontline Caster could very well be up Blue Mage's alley.

Anyways, in summary, I am not saying we can't tweak RDM as necessary to make it feel better. I don't, however expect it's role to change and I'm not as pessimistic as some with it's current melee/magic balance. I've always viewed Red Mage as a mid-range character and this fits the bill. There's no point being bitter and insulting about it, and a lot time is being spent trying to justify something that just boils down to personal bias and preference. It'd be so much simpler to say "I just wanted it this way and that's not what I got." History is not on yours or Duelle's side on this, but it doesn't mean Red Mage can't improve somewhat in that direction. Just don't expect a rewrite and don't dwell in bitterness. That's pointless.