#RIPRDM

[Sarynth]

I remember leveling red mage back in 2007 and going to town with my sword and spells. Then level 41 hit and I got shoved in the backline as just some mana battery. I'm absolutely loving how ffxiv's red mage is turning out as it fits the image of a mage that can blend magic and sword for an offensive playstyle.

[Khalithar]

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Duelle. Let me say that I would have preferred rdm to be more melee focused as well and I fully agree with your right to criticize what has been presented. But let me offer this:

Let's wait and see if rdm has any other melee based attacks first as we don't know every single ability it has in its arsenal and we shouldn't take the brief showcase as an example of everything.

Secondly, it's always possible that if the community makes enough noise and complains enough they'll change the design. Brd and Mch losing their cast times is proof of that. I certainly plan to advocate for more melee abilities if it's as limited as it appears on paper.

[Duelle]

Let's wait and see if rdm has any other melee based attacks first as we don't know every single ability it has in its arsenal and we shouldn't take the brief showcase as an example of everything.

Based on what I've seen from the Yoshida footage and the document put together for RDM, we currently have 23 RDM skills based on icons alone, 5 of which we don't know the effects (though 2 of those are almost certainly Not-Flare and Not-Holy). At 60, we have a total of 28 skills (18 baseline abilities, 10 quested abilities), so there's not much space to work with. Of course, we don't know exactly how many new skills we'll get for the lv61-70, so there is that.

Overall, we've seen 18 skills in action (one of which is lv66), 2 skills we sort of know, and the rest are still a mystery. I guess it's possible we're in the dark on at the least 10 skills.

Secondly, it's always possible that if the community makes enough noise and complains enough they'll change the design. Brd and Mch losing their cast times is proof of that. I certainly plan to advocate for more melee abilities if it's as limited as it appears on paper.

Based on what is known, the least work-intensive way would be to nerf spells a bit and increase mana generated per cast (assuming that the enhanced sword skill combo is the "burst phase" as some have theorized). That should sort of even out casting vs melee uptime while keeping damage output the same, as you'd be hitting 80/80 more often but dealing less damage from spell-spam; the downside being that it would make RDM more bursty.

Anything beyond that would probably call for a redesign of how black/white mana work combined with how sword skills relate to spell use.

That's what a Rotation is - using your 'turns' in this case, your global cool-downs, most effectively as possible.

You're trying to twist what I'm saying into something unrelated.

Looking at things like enspells and buffs in general, you run into the issue of wasting turns. I could give you a RDM in a console FF that has enspells and Saber and Temper in addition to black magic nukes and white magic heals/buffs, but the problem is that to prop that RDM up for melee in turn-based combat, you're wasting three turns (assuming you don't have a second character that can at least cover one of those buffs) before you even begin to use attacks. To justify spending 3 turns just buffing up would require attacks or special skills dependent on those effects to deal a huge amount of damage. Looking at it another way, if you have the choice of wasting 3 turns to prop up melee or spend it casting something else, 9.5 times out of 10 you're going to choose casting something. Looking at it yet another way, why waste turns with a RDM when you could get direct damage via a fighter or a class with higher base damage?

Moving into MMOs (specifically decently-paced live combat), RDM doesn't have those mechanical limitations because now you can throw in procs, instant-cast buffs, combos and secondary effects (all of which are generally not part of turn-based systems). From a design perspective you don't need to keep the elements of the job segregated from each other like in the console FFs, which is why I argue that Enspells and Phalanx were a step in the right direction for the job; it demonstrates the link between the job's "trades", and that is further expanded on with the aforementioned mechanics.

That's what "Casting Spells with Swords" does. I'm beginning to doubt your experience with Final Fantasy extends much past Final Fantasy XI. In their quintessential incarnation, Final Fantasy V, Mystic Knight's spells added magical damage to the physical attack calculation.

My point was: that's all they were there for. FFV's Mystic Knight exists only to cast spells through swords. You can't compare that at all to a job that uses sword, white magic and black magic. Sure, if you chop off the white magic and limit spell use just whenever the sword swings then yes, you can remotely compare RDM to Mystic Knight.

For the record, I've played most FF games with the exception of II, III, Crystal Chronicles, Tactics Advance, the XIII trilogy and XV. And I couldn't finish XII because I found the voice acting atrocious.

It should be noted that the very same game is the one that debuts Red Mage's most defining trait - Dualcast, which has evolved into Chainspell over time.

Again, console FFs design their jobs to generally be one-trick ponies. Generally speaking, Dualcast is a gimmick. Sure, it made some ridiculous combinations with other jobs, but without it there would be no point to leveling/mastering a RDM.

And those limitations are irrelevant to the actual premise of your argument, which is to say that Red Mage should be more like Mystic Knight.

Wanting to go to the logical progression of a sword & spell hybrid (combining the trades through interactions between them and mechanics to support said interactions) is not wanting to be a mystic knight.

I challenge that. I'd say you praise them when you agree with them.

That's...how criticism works. Criticism is formed based on critical spectrum (AKA what you've seen before), knowledge of the medium (including other examples that you'll compare the subject matter to), and a big dose of opinion.

You seem to be bothered by the fact that I don't like what's been presented. Also, you don't need to feel insulted for the devs. They're grown men and women and can take their lumps like everyone else. I'm just one guy, after all, and they likely would never read this thread, much less take anything in it into account when making decisions.

[Yorumi]

Moving into MMOs (specifically decently-paced live combat), RDM doesn't have those mechanical limitations because now you can throw in procs, instant-cast buffs, combos and secondary effects (all of which are generally not part of turn-based systems).

I think the problem is that you don't seem to understand that mmo combat is mostly turn based. FF14 is basically just an FF game with a 2.5 second ATB. RDM has existed in FF game with ATB systems and it still remains largely a caster. You don't think you can do anything you listed in an ATB system? Bull crap. Procs? Sorcerer does it in FF5. Instant cast buffs? Um double cast. You can cast spells without consuming the ATB gauge. Combos? Not hard to keep a list of previously used abilities(this was more a limitation in the past when memory was a real concern). Secondary effects? Um mug, deal damage and chance to steal an item or gil. They could have done any of this is past FF games, but instead went with a more caster oriented direction for RDM throughout FF history.

i would say the fault lies with you for expecting a RDM design in ff14 that strongly departs from RDM tradition and is basically a radical redesign of the class.

[Duelle]

mmo combat is mostly turn based.

I agree and disagree. The GCD simulates character turns, but removes a lot of the inherent delay and waiting (because in turn-based combat you have to literally wait for your turn and are sitting there until the other animations finish playing. In live combat, it's all you.

Procs? Sorcerer does it in FF5.

Does Sorcerer/Mystic Knight have procs upon hitting Attack that facilitate other actions (say, hitting Attack has a chance to make the next use of Magic Sword to cost no MP)?

The example that comes to mind for procs is the Art of War mechanic. Attacks cause the next spell to be instant cast. Which means you're not getting procs unless you're hitting the target, and can go either way with it (either give spells a short cast time but make them strong during AoW procs, or give them long cast times to encourage the player to use them with the proc rather than without).

Instant cast buffs? Um double cast.

For buffs, what comes to mind for me would be something like Enspells acting as a stance or oGCD buff that you can activate to then consume or increase damage output from melee. Things like Embolden also fall into this category.

Combos? Not hard to keep a list of previously used abilities(this was more a limitation in the past when memory was a real concern).

I meant along the lines of weaving spells and sword attacks. You could have Cross Cut => Chant du Cygne and the option of finishing it with Millionstab or Val Fire, for example. Spells could also gain specific traits when used mid-combo instead of on their own or as finishers. That's not something turn-based combat can implement.

Secondary effects? Um mug, deal damage and chance to steal an item or gil.

More like, say, casting Val Thunder on a target and it adding lightning elemental damage to your weaponskills for a set duration. I'll admit that this last one could sort of work in turn-based combat, though you're right in that few have tried it.

i would say the fault lies with you for expecting a RDM design in ff14 that strongly departs from RDM tradition and is basically a radical redesign of the class.

Given what was done to SCH and SMN to get them into the game, I'd say the precedent for shifts in mechanics was set about 4 years ago when ARR launched. So trying to use "tradition" doesn't work here. And I've always argued that the transition from console FF to MMO FF is not a 1:1 transition.

[Khalithar]

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1/2 cause I can't edit on mobile.

Note I am only going to reply to the per directed at me obviously.

Now I don't necessarily know about changing rdm to a frontline dps, given the fact it wears casting armor I think that boat has already sailed. So no I wasn't arguing to turn rdm in to a front liner type, my fault if it seemed that way.

Anyway! What I'm saying is give rdm more melee abilities. Assuming that three hit combo is all it has, why not add some extra oGcd melee attacks to weave in during that time? How about a ranged move where they throw the sword at the target and blast the sword with lightning? How about adding an extra 2-3 combo that builds up SOME mana after your mana spend combo then have you jump out to build the majority with spells? Am I conveying my point better? Honestly I'm asking.

[Khalithar]

2/2 as far as mystic knight goes my answer is a bit simpler. We already have the tank that does magic and melee (drk) and we have the dps with magic and melee (rdm) now. I don't think the devs would want to add another one.

[Hyrist]

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We kinda already have the 'throw your sword' skill in the two skills where Red Mage effectively launches a series of blades in a single target and aoe attack respectively. We also don't know if our current existing setup does result in Mana returned. But all of these suggestions aren't bad suggestions, they just have to be balanced with what is going on with the Job as a whole, and we do not have the complete picture. There's just off the cuff judging going on about it. We're at level 70 with what will likely get 30 more - so these are great suggestions for say the far off future when skills do get fully revised. I expect more number's tweaking and minor adjustments through the 4.xx series. We also have both gap closer and gap opener off global cooldowns.

As far as Dark Knight goes - that's more akin to Paladin in dichotomy than Red Mage. We don't have any magic based front-line DPS, which will likely be one of the next steps in the job release process. Right now we're equally balanced in the roles if you split them between primary stat (Vit Based, Str Based, Dex Based, Int Based, Mnd Based) at 3 a piece. Which means we may have about five more jobs total to go, if they intend to ultimately maintain this balance. Mystic Knight fits the bill, though, in some regards so does Blue Mage - who has been seen more as the class that casts physical spells. This may fall in line with the motif because a STR based Frontline Caster could very well be up Blue Mage's alley.

Anyways, in summary, I am not saying we can't tweak RDM as necessary to make it feel better. I don't, however expect it's role to change and I'm not as pessimistic as some with it's current melee/magic balance. I've always viewed Red Mage as a mid-range character and this fits the bill. There's no point being bitter and insulting about it, and a lot time is being spent trying to justify something that just boils down to personal bias and preference. It'd be so much simpler to say "I just wanted it this way and that's not what I got." History is not on yours or Duelle's side on this, but it doesn't mean Red Mage can't improve somewhat in that direction. Just don't expect a rewrite and don't dwell in bitterness. That's pointless.

[Crushnight]

2/2 as far as mystic knight goes my answer is a bit simpler. We already have the tank that does magic and melee (drk) and we have the dps with magic and melee (rdm) now. I don't think the devs would want to add another one.

On phone so sorry for any errors but how bout a magic melee hlr and personally this is how I thought rdm was going to go till they revealed it was a dps amy I dis appointed sure but I will try it out eventually and base my full opinion after that.

[spelley]

RDM design seems just fine. Currently writing a "simulator" of sorts to go through and pick optimal skill pairings based on current state. On initial rotation, assuming we burn the 2x mana skill, we take between 8-10 GCDs to get get into melee. Without the 2x mana skill, we take anywhere from 16-19 GCDs to build up to 80. Likely conclusions are:

1. 2x Mana cooldown is moderate length (30s - 60s), we go Short rotation -> Long Rotation -> (Repeat)
2. 2x Mana CD is very short (15s - 25s) any double every 40ish > 50ish >Repeat
3. CD is long (1min+) and we have a separate mana-dump to build to that *isn't* the core Spellblade combo
4. Moderate/Long 2x Mana CD (30s-60s+) and doing just the 1 -> 2 melee combo is a DPS increase instead of waiting for the full 80 (so goals become 40 > 55 > Repeat)
5. Combination of some of the above

Seems fine to me. Our AOE rotation is likely Shatter Spam -> the melee that wants 30+mana -> Repeat, whichever resource runs dry first (MP or TP), spam the other. So each one is primarily a spellcasting rotation with melee flourishes. This makes fits with how RDM has been in every previous Final Fantasy.