#RIPRDM

[Ageofwar]

OK with the click bait out of the way, you can move along to the next thread.

What still here?

Well since my starting job on FFXI was RDM I would like to say I love what SE did with RDM for FFXIV. One of the things that really drove me nuts about RDM on FFXI was being used as a backup healer and buffer even though the job had quite a bit of DPS potental.

I myself am looking forward to playing around with RDM on FFXIV full knowledge that the job is a pure DPS job even with the Job Skill trailer showing this

[Duelle]

Being a black mage with a sword is not much of an improvement. It's not as bad as the Swordmage from Revelation Online (where the sword is purely an accessory and is there for no reason), but very up there.

[Yorumi]

Being a black mage with a sword is not much of an improvement. It's not as bad as the Swordmage from Revelation Online (where the sword is purely an accessory and is there for no reason), but very up there.

Really this incarnation of RDM stays pretty faithful to what a rdm is at it's core. Generally you see RDM take one of two forms. In FF1 it mainly replaced whm. It's sword skills offered more damage than whm could do while still supplying sufficient healing. In other games it pairs double cast with higher end magic usually from a sub job. Basically summons or becoming a double casting blm. So I'd say it's pretty faithful, it's using it's sword and attack magic at the expense of healing. But really in a game with such a clear distinction between healers and dps there's not much they could have done to support both on one class.

[Duelle]

Really this incarnation of RDM stays pretty faithful to what a rdm is at it's core. Generally you see RDM take one of two forms. In FF1 it mainly replaced whm. It's sword skills offered more damage than whm could do while still supplying sufficient healing. In other games it pairs double cast with higher end magic usually from a sub job.

As I've mentioned in the past, that's due to limitations from turn-based combat. Turn-based combat doesn't have much room for hybrids to shine without making the player waste turns and lacks opportunity via mechanics. You're not getting procs and you're certainly not getting the ability to combine aspects of your class into something more. I mean, if you look at how RDM was designed in the console FFs, its elements are all segregated. Mediocre melee, mediocre white magic, mediocre black magic. Which is why some of the FFs had to make up gimmicks like Doublecast to make it not be a waste of code.

Once you throw turn-based combat out the window, a world of opportunities opens up, because then you can do things like procs from melee attacks that make your next spell instant, melee + magic combos that leave a lingering enchant on your weapon, the ability to charge your weapon with magic energy and then release it as a powerful spell, having melee strikes weaken the target to make them take more damage from your spells, and outright being able to enchant your sword (which FFXI did). All of these involve an actual marriage of spell and sword to work. Hence why MMOs depict hybrids differently, especially after they realized they could stop bait-and-switching players into picking them up.

But really in a game with such a clear distinction between healers and dps there's not much they could have done to support both on one class.

My issue is more that it's a ranged caster that makes very little use of the sword. That's why I compare it to the Revelation Swordmage. As I've said before, you could remove the Cross Cut => Chant du Cygne => Millionstab combo and replace it with Ultima and you'd see no difference in the gameplay. That's how tacked on the use of the sword is. If they wanted to make a mage that balances white and dark magic, I say go ahead; Sage and Magus are available for that. Just don't slap a red hat and sword on them and try to call them Red Mages.

[Ageofwar]

Wow from me giving this thread such a negative title (OK may be a bit of a joke at the ffxiv comunities expense) to find people with more passion for RDM that I am.

when I saw the first video of RDM at christmas I was expecting an abilty of switching between melee and casting whenever you wanted. Unless i'm seeing something wrong in the job skills video it seems the spells seem to power up the melee attacks rather than being on an equal footing. its nice to see it being a Ranged Melee rather than a job they would have to break the trinity to bring to light

[Duelle]

when I saw the first video of RDM at christmas I was expecting an abilty of switching between melee and casting whenever you wanted. Unless i'm seeing something wrong in the job skills video it seems the spells seem to power up the melee attacks rather than being on an equal footing. its nice to see it being a Ranged Melee rather than a job they would have to break the trinity to bring to light

The thing is that mana generation is very slow. Most skills generate 8-11 mana per cast, with a couple of in-between spells used that generate 3 of each type. The showcase video had the RDM spam magic for a good while and still had to use a cooldown in order to have enough mana to do a three-hit combo.

This is why people are saying the rotation is mostly spamming spells, and they're right.

[Ageofwar]

The thing is that mana generation is very slow. Most skills generate 8-11 mana per cast, with a couple of in-between spells used that generate 3 of each type. The showcase video had the RDM spam magic for a good while and still had to use a cooldown in order to have enough mana to do a three-hit combo.

This is why people are saying the rotation is mostly spamming spells, and they're right.

Rewatching the video there does seems to be one ablity that gives 2/3 of both bars. the fact that about 8 spells only gives you a thrid of both bar is quite bad I hope these values are adjusted going into the final version. with the current values I can see spending most of your time casting but will have to wait for SB to know for sure

[Duelle]

Rewatching the video there does seems to be one ablity that gives 2/3 of both bars.

That's the cooldown I was talking about. The RDM hits 41 white/black mana and uses a cooldown to double the mana accumulated. Not-Holy adds 21 white mana, and Not-Flare is speculated to do the same for black mana. If I were to hazard a guess, those two spells will probably be locked behind a requirement; requiring a Cross Cut => Chant du Cygne => Millionstab combo, requiring you use the jump back, or requiring you to spend X amount of mana (though the chances of the last one are very low).

what im saying is dont base everything you see based on a video of someone playing a class that they havent played at optimal

I only brought up rotation because the rotation is the result of what abilities a class has. When the bulk of your abilities are ranged spells, and the devs show nothing but mechanics that involve ranged spell casting aside from grudgingly putting the sword to use for 3 GCDs...the writing is on the wall. You'll cast like a turret until you pool enough mana to do your three hit combo and back to casting you go.

I wish I were wrong, but as I said in the other thread, the devs have had plenty of opportunity to prove me wrong, and have not.

Focusing more heavily on magic vs melee for the Red Mage fits the Final Fantasy XIV lore. After all, the Red Mages are former Black and White Mages that worked together to create an entirely new school of magic.

And at that point I ask, why Red Mages? If you want mages that don't use swords making peace and joining forces, Sage would have been a much better pick. Make them ascetics focused on balance in everything to create something bigger/better, and go from there. It'd even conceptually fit as a magic counterpart to MNK (who have the light and dark chakra thing).

[Mhaeric]

You'll cast like a turret

This is incorrect. The base cast time red mages operate under due to chainspell is 2s on the first gcd and instant on the second gcd, repeating every 2 gcds. That's a 60+% uptime in which there is huge mobility and ability to weave ogcd abilities we havent seen all of yet. They will feel and play much more like the current bard than a black mage what with the priority proc rotation, short cast times, and ogcd weaving.

I'm super looking forward to it.

[Okamimaru]

lets also remember that the devs and probably whoever made the videos im sure doesnt play as much as we do and learn all the little tricks for highest performance... these guys may create the game but we MASTER it... i mean based on NIN showcase in the skill vid nobody would EVER want to play something so slow and clunky... im sure within a month or two youll see guides on here for best max DPS rotations with hard numbers and stats... what im saying is dont base everything you see based on a video of someone playing a class that they havent played at optimal