Very concerned about 4.0 gameplay having no strategy

[Shurrikhan]

*No --> Much reduced*

With the removal of all +% crit/damage skills (save for BFB on DRG(?)), I'm seriously worried that there's no longer going to be any real sense of strategy or macrorotation when DPSing. I would think that ideally, a given ability (that is to say oGCD, since GCD skills are "weaponskills" and "spells") should be balanced somewhere between being best used in pairing with another and best used on-CD. This balance, or spread of consideration, is what allows for any sense of strategy in an otherwise "hit all the things (between GCDs)" style of combat. Right now, CD sync and fight-based considerations to (no) movement, AoE, and vuln windows are the only things that keep XIV from being a lineup of abilities that one could inconsequentially run their finger over between GCDs until expended, simply scrolling back and forth to intercept whatever refreshes.

I like having to pay attention to the softer windows and (de)sync of synergetic abilities, and actually having to do some calculations in my head and consider what mechanics are coming up that may cause a delay in a usually paired ability. If that, honestly huge, portion of gameplay is removed, I don't think any amount of concentrated "identity" can save my interest in a given DPS job, and (while perhaps a stark minority), I don't think I'm alone in that.

Admittedly, our AoE abilities, and maybe even the bosses' vuln/devuln phases, at least will lend a fight-specific aspect to CD-holding, but I don't see why SE found would find it so crucial to try to remove this sort of gameplay rather than to simply offer better training in its gameplay. There's a massive difference between being a player being "casual" and utterly disinterested in combat or any learning involved therein, and the latter must not be treated as the baseline by which combat is designed. That the skill-gap forms among players who do want to learn, inversely, can be blamed at least as rightly on the game's ability to guide players (through tips, tasks, cumulative difficulty or an otherwise smooth learning curve, and so forth) as on the system itself. Kill the system to significantly shorten the difference between a player who enjoys learning the intricacies of combat and one who would rather treat it as either a persistent mystery or a dunghill, and you will alienate those you previously attracted.

Wait to cry fowl til after we have the meal before us. Not during the appetizer

Let's say you go to a steakhouse. Your appetizer is vegan. You ask the cook if this is the general style of the restaurant's food, and he affirms.

Should you wait until the food is served, and cannot be freely remade or modified, before you voice any concern?

Historically, MMOs do not receive significant adjustment during expansions. If CD alignment and holding are gone at SB's launch, they will almost certainly stay absent. Sadly, it is unlikely that they would produce their "appetizer" while still allowing for any time to make use of any feedback given upon it, in part because they need all the time they can get and in another—because with as long a track record for misinterpretation and false ultimatums, its probably best to excuse themselves as having received no negative feedback, and therefore clearly following the playerbase's wishes. As such, it is probably already too LATE, but it is certainly not too EARLY to be giving feedback.

[Greywolfamakir]

They removed BFB, Internal Release and Raging Strikes from their new Role-Cross actions, but you dont know what will get each job in exchange, i mean, Machinist's CDs were BFB, Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye, and all of them were from others classes, but here is the key, we dont know whether MCH will get new Damage / Crit CDs.

You are assuming that SE will remove all of them and they won't add new ones, but we know nothing.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

True. I am assuming due to percentile CDs being mentioned as a source of "bloating" whereas non-utility direct-damaging oGCDs apparently were not considered as such. The issue is that the both have synergy primarily only with each other (buffs of the same type are treated additively, and the damage dealt by one direct damage skill has no effect on another's). As far as we know, it seems likely that Wildfire is the only of the percentile abilities to survive. Had it simply been an issue of skills lacking unique aesthetics/names, they wouldn't have torn exactly that out of Luminferous Aether, Shroud of Saints, Energy Drain, and Shadowskin. Instead, gameplay screenshots show them all removed even from their native class, Bard (in addition to Flaming Arrow, oddly enough).

The way the role system is set up lends itself to a lot of strategy actually. All the skills in it are useful in some situations but not all, I can see players wanting to optimise their role skills frequently depending on the encounter. For example: Healers won't want cleric stance while learning a fight, but once they have cleared and are wanting to optimise for farm, then they will consider taking it. Esuna isn't used for all fights, and they might consider replacing it for something like Rescue if it is a dead skill on their hotbar etc. (Healer is the only role skill menu that I remember, though I vaguely remember being impressed with the others as well)

Strategy has been reduced in some areas, sure, but it has been enhanced in other areas. I would suggest waiting until you actually play the expansion until you make a judgement on how complex the updated battle system is, because I feel like we will need to completely change our mindset regarding how we utilise it, and currently a lot of people are thinking with outdated logic, and clinging to how these changes work in isolation within the current battle system.

Oh I agree absolutely with that. To be honest, my first thought was towards that of WoW: WoD/Legion's talents, which, while capable of a fairly "standard" build given one's gear, vary from fight to fight. In our case there would be no consumable to allow for swapping between individual bosses of the same instance, luckily, but we would have the opportunity to min-max based on need for a given instance entire. I mentioned elsewhere that I was actually fairly glad that Cleric Stance's buff was small enough not to be requirement for every progression team, or likely even for farms so long as the other X-role skills can indirectly squeeze out a bit of combined dps, and I'm certainly looking forward to choosing when or when not to take Ultimatum, etc. Inevitably, some skills will end up being taken for nearly all fights and others for very few, but that's alright, imo, so long as the balance can be close enough not to mandate specific abilities for each instance.

[TristanBlane]

You are assuming that SE will remove all of them and they won't add new ones, but we know nothing.

This ^^^

I understand the worry and I deff agree its important to voice your concerns on how things might change, but theres still so much we don't know. We will have to wait until release to see how things turn out. Hopefully, for the better.

[Ferth]

Unfortunately we just have to wait and see. I was a bit disheartened to see nothing similar to raging strikes for casters, but that doesn't definitively mean it's gone or that we won't get something similar.

It is a justified concern, it was certainly nice to have those moments when the cooldowns align and you can unleash hell. But until we know what's definitely changing it's hard to make a case... Also at this point even if they did take most of the oGCD abilities away it's too late in the development cycle for them to bring them back for Stormblood's launch. I suppose we just have to make sure that if it happens we make sure our voices are heard.

[Mature]

You are concerned about something that we don't really know much.... I don't know where to start....

[Zaresin]

I have to agree. We know very little about what is and isn't in SB. Wait to cry fowl til after we have the meal before us. Not during the appetizer

[Lambdafish]

The way the role system is set up lends itself to a lot of strategy actually. All the skills in it are useful in some situations but not all, I can see players wanting to optimise their role skills frequently depending on the encounter. For example: Healers won't want cleric stance while learning a fight, but once they have cleared and are wanting to optimise for farm, then they will consider taking it. Esuna isn't used for all fights, and they might consider replacing it for something like Rescue if it is a dead skill on their hotbar etc. (Healer is the only role skill menu that I remember, though I vaguely remember being impressed with the others as well)

Strategy has been reduced in some areas, sure, but it has been enhanced in other areas. I would suggest waiting until you actually play the expansion until you make a judgement on how complex the updated battle system is, because I feel like we will need to completely change our mindset regarding how we utilise it, and currently a lot of people are thinking with outdated logic, and clinging to how these changes work in isolation within the current battle system.

[ShaneDawn]

Going to agree with this one, the meaningful decision-making in combat could get very bland if the it gets simplified to just mostly performing your set rotation with minor divergence from it. It's probably too early to be doom-and-gloom about the issue, but it is a valid concern to make. I'm certainly hoping that the new gauge systems will bring a new way to play that takes skill, planning and understanding to master.

Following up with a quote of mine from another thread.

This is actually somewhat concerning, although not just for Bard. A major factor separating great players from the good ones was often knowing how to line up your buffs and using them to their best effect. You would often want to delay certain cooldowns to get a stronger alignment with others, most likely discuss the cooldown usage with your party members to benefit more from your shared multiplicative damage modifiers. This is especially true for buff-heavy, dot-snipping class like Bard, whose damage is very relative to how well you know your buffs and get the best out of them. A thing that a lot of people seem to disregard is snipping your dots outside openers to get extended effects of Raging Strikes and Internal Release. As you also mentioned, the usage and general party timing for openers and mini-openers that usually happened several times throughout a raid were a key to maximizing the DPS.

Just like CPM, the general know-how is what takes players a long way in increasing their DPS. As it is, you can achieve decent DPS just by knowing your priorities. To achieve good DPS, you also need to know your opener and use your damage modifiers. To achieve great DPS, you also need to be able to use your cooldowns in an efficient manner. If you want to go even beyond that, you need to start effectively syncing the party cooldown usage so that you gain the maximum effect out of the shared modifiers. It is a somewhat more technical system than meets the eye, but adds a big layer of complexity for those wishing to go above and beyond.

It's probably too early to jump to conclusions, but the possible pruning of damage modifiers from classes could serve as a bigger dumb-down to the game (and especially Bard as a class) than removing the cast times ever did. Unless the consistent performance as you mention it will become more difficult to achieve than it currently is. However, since the removal of cast times will be dumbing that part down as well, the ease or difficulty of our consistent rotation is going to be largely dependent on how the song system is going to work out and how the combat changes will reflect in general battle design .

[Khel]

It levels the playing field. Some classes got access to much better cross class skills than others. That has nothing to do with taking away strategy IMO.