Are role actions a nerf?

[Neophyte]

I did read your post.

I'm glad you can be optimistic which is what I'm trying to do. Most of all since I keep saying that i'd hold any real judgement until we actually get the play the game with the new changes. ( ifyou'd like to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions that'd be excellent. )

I don't understand why you're being so confrontational. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be concerned.

It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

I mean, ypu won't just lose lvl. 6 (CS), lvl. 8 (Protect), lvl. 16 (Esuna), lvl. 38 (SoS) and lvl. 40 (DS) as a WHM and take all 5 back from rolebased because you need them, while SCH only loses lvl 12 (Virus), lvl. 34 (E4E) and lvl. 40 (Leeches), takes those 3 back from rolebased and get OP by just adding a for-WHM-mandatory mp regen plus CS/protect.

They won't just give SCH acces to SoS and done, that's their healer rework, lol.

Also if you're refering to an earlier post, my post on the last page was my first reply to this thread. It was in direct response to OP. So if you are refering to something between the pages of 2-8, Sorry I didn't read ALL of the discussion from everyone else. I just wanted to reply to OP and apparently im attacked because of it.

Moving along ;p

Nope, I was only refering to the qupted post.

_____________________________________________

I mean, sure you can think tha the devs suck balls in regards to balancing.
But don't try to back it with "By now in Heavensward not being able to use skill x, y, z would be very bad, so it will most likely be bad in Stormblood to not be able to use the same-in-name optional skills."


Or just look at Cleric Stance.... by now: Most mandatory ability if you want to deal damage.
In Stormblood: A 5% 15s damage buff on 90s CD therefore buffing your outgoing dps by 0,8% (100% damage uptime, instead of lets say 1000 dps you do 1010ish) to 5% (only dpsing when CS is from CD, so maybe from 200->210 dps).
(I'm aware that those calculations are not exact and maybe set a bit low... but not by much)

That doesn't sound as mandatory as before for a dpsing healer, right?

[Vhailor]

It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

Lest we forget, this is the same development team that seemed oblivious to the flaws inherent in Diadem gear upon release, the same development team that cherry-picks Steps of Faith and Pharos Sirius and declares it to be definitive evidence that challenging (non-Savage) dungeons are bad, the same development team that just relocated servers across the continent and issued an utterly ridiculous statement about there being "no discernable difference" in gameplay if your ping remains below 200ms. They CONSTANTLY make decisions that run the gamut from poorly-implemented to dumb to counter-productive. That's why many of us are viewing these role-based skills with a degree of skepticism.

Another way to look at it is this: the best-case scenario is that SE modified all of these role-based skills, and that they now provide optional 'boosts' to existing abilities. At which point - again, best-case scenario - we basically have the exact same system as we have now, minus the need to level other jobs. I'd still say that's a missed opportunity.

In a worst-case scenario, SE hasn't modified the role-based skills, and we are now staring at a tidal wave of problems centering around the fact that multiple required abilities must now be manually selected by players who might not realize they're essential.

Given the possible gains and possible problems, I think basing our concerns around "I use X ability all the time in Stormblood" is quite reasonable for the moment, pending additional information.

[Neophyte]

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

The problem is the number of abilities that many feel ARE mandatory in the shared role action list, basically limiting or outright removing any choice at all.

What do I consider mandatory for me as a healer?

Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

Swiftcast - Assuming resses aren't made instant cast by default.

Lucid Dream - Assuming each healer isn't getting its own mp recovery tool (and why would they when the goal was to prune things)

Esuna - I consider the ability to cleanse debuffs essential.

That's four out of five picks I can't live without. And if Affection (the ability using the Divine Seal icon) turns out to be Divine Seal and that WHM has lost Divine Seal as a default skill, I'd be VERY hard pressed to choose any of the other choices over it. My role as a healer means that I need to be the best healer I can be and that means having all the tools I feel I need to perform that role.

Now you might say I am making a lot of assumptions here, but I say so are you. You're assuming we'll be getting replacements for all these skills moved into shared role skills or things will change so much that we won't "need" them, and I say that's a hell of an assumption. I can only go by what SE has shown so far. And what they have shown me is that 4 out of 5 of my shared role actions "choices" have already been made for me... 5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all. I'll happily endure any embarrassment if it turns out I am being overly concerned for nothing, but right now I think I am justified with my concern.

[SendohJin]

5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all.

and some people further up are saying how much they need E4E.

so now you're at 6/5 that's mandatory meaning they're actually really not.

somebody is going to be going without something that someone else thinks have to be had.

Swiftcast is 100% mandatory all the time, i'm willing to believe everything else will be optional in some cases and absolutely necessary in others (at least for healers, yes, even Protect).

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

and some people further up are saying how much they need E4E.

so now you're at 6/5 that's mandatory meaning they're actually really not.

somebody is going to be going without something that someone else thinks have to be had.

Swiftcast is 100% mandatory all the time, i'm willing to believe everything else will be optional in some cases and absolutely necessary in others (at least for healers, yes, even Protect).

But Eye for an Eye is categorically NOT mandatory for healers. Why do I say that? Because not all healers currently have access to it. It's also a long cooldown short duration defensive buff. It's something that can be done without as every AST can attest to. Much like Virus, it's a "nice to have" not an essential tool for the role.

I'll even go so far as to say Protect is not mandatory... if you don't care about bolstering the survival of your group with a powerful long term buff that can be reapplied at any time. But I'm willing to bet most healers would agree that a healer who isn't able to apply this buff to their group is missing an essential tool (assuming a single healer, statics with two healers can obviously coordinate). But I do remember several times people were not happy in my groups when I was a lowbie SCH and didnt have protect as my first cross-class skill (cleric stance was more important at those levels so was first, protect was next).

But Esuna? That's mandatory. Any healer who can't remove debuffs is a healer who can't fully do their job. It's why Leeches not being unlocked till level 40 was a sticking point for many scholars. The impact is less noticeable at lower levels but still felt. It's felt far more in the later levels.

Swiftcast is basically a given because of the insanely long cast times of the res spells. Were res spells made instant by default I would absolutely move Swiftcast to the optional category.

Lucid Dream is mandatory. Every healer needs a way to self sustain their MP, assuming they aren't the type to stand around doing nothing when no one needs healing. And considering how big a topic thats been and especially with the change to Cleric Stance, I think many players are going to expect more uptime dpsing out of healers in 4.0.


So Esuna, Swiftcast, Lucid Dream = things no healer should be without. Protect is arguably just as essential since its a powerful buff that applies to the whole group and can be kept up indefinitely. In 8 man statics that have 2 healers sure one of them could swap in something else, but in general, I think most people will expect healers to have Protect.

If Affection turns out to be a revamped replacement for Divine Seal, I think many healers will be hard pressed not to take it for those big tank pulls or those umber "oh crap!" moments. But I will concede that even if it is Divine Seal, it is something that one could live without... grudgingly.

[Grimmjow_Jaegerjaques]

Lucid Dream is mandatory. Every healer needs a way to self sustain their MP, assuming they aren't the type to stand around doing nothing when no one needs healing.

How can people play the Scholar in HW?
Its impossible without Lucid Dream (Shroud) D:

[Hamada]

The problem is the number of abilities that many feel ARE mandatory in the shared role action list, basically limiting or outright removing any choice at all.

What do I consider mandatory for me as a healer?Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

Swiftcast - Assuming resses aren't made instant cast by default.

Lucid Dream - Assuming each healer isn't getting its own mp recovery tool (and why would they when the goal was to prune things)

Esuna - I consider the ability to cleanse debuffs essential.

That's four out of five picks I can't live without. And if Affection (the ability using the Divine Seal icon) turns out to be Divine Seal and that WHM has lost Divine Seal as a default skill, I'd be VERY hard pressed to choose any of the other choices over it. My role as a healer means that I need to be the best healer I can be and that means having all the tools I feel I need to perform that role.

Now you might say I am making a lot of assumptions here, but I say so are you. You're assuming we'll be getting replacements for all these skills moved into shared role skills or things will change so much that we won't "need" them, and I say that's a hell of an assumption. I can only go by what SE has shown so far. And what they have shown me is that 4 out of 5 of my shared role actions "choices" have already been made for me... 5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all. I'll happily endure any embarrassment if it turns out I am being overly concerned for nothing, but right now I think I am justified with my concern.

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

Lest we forget, this is the same development team that seemed oblivious to the flaws inherent in Diadem gear upon release, the same development team that cherry-picks Steps of Faith and Pharos Sirius and declares it to be definitive evidence that challenging (non-Savage) dungeons are bad, the same development team that just relocated servers across the continent and issued an utterly ridiculous statement about there being "no discernable difference" in gameplay if your ping remains below 200ms. They CONSTANTLY make decisions that run the gamut from poorly-implemented to dumb to counter-productive. That's why many of us are viewing these role-based skills with a degree of skepticism.

Another way to look at it is this: the best-case scenario is that SE modified all of these role-based skills, and that they now provide optional 'boosts' to existing abilities. At which point - again, best-case scenario - we basically have the exact same system as we have now, minus the need to level other jobs. I'd still say that's a missed opportunity.

In a worst-case scenario, SE hasn't modified the role-based skills, and we are now staring at a tidal wave of problems centering around the fact that multiple required abilities must now be manually selected by players who might not realize they're essential.

Given the possible gains and possible problems, I think basing our concerns around "I use X ability all the time in Stormblood" is quite reasonable for the moment, pending additional information.

these are good posts that make me worry if role actions are a nerf. Also I am concerned about DPS output balance. Can brd keep up without blood for blood and internal release? MCH without blood for blood and hawk eye for wildfire? I do understand MCH is likely much different then we know now, but does SE truly understand what we can do with rotations? will this lead to no x job allowed to do x content?

Why are healers losing protect and esuna as default? that makes no sense at all. (and maybe losing mp recovery tool and dive seal?) does this make AST too op with synergy on top of it?

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

these are good posts that make me worry if role actions are a nerf. Also I am concerned about DPS output balance. Can brd keep up without blood for blood and internal release? MCH without blood for blood and hawk eye for wildfire? I do understand MCH is likely much different then we know now, but does SE truly understand what we can do with rotations? will this lead to no x job allowed to do x content?

Why are healers losing protect and esuna as default? that makes no sense at all. (and maybe losing mp recovery tool and dive seal?) does this make AST too op with synergy on top of it?

The idea was that there should be a uniform toolkit for each role. Certain skills that these roles were expected to have such as Provoke for all Tanks. Unfortunately they are mixed in with optional skills in the new system, and quite a few "essential" skills eat up those 5 slots. Keep in mind though that "healers" aren't losing protect... Conjurers (and by extension White Mages) are. AST and SCH currently have to cross-class it so nothing changes for them in 4.0 regarding Protect. WHM on the other hand will have to use up a slot for it. But you are correct that all healers are losing their default "cleanse" skill and have to allot one of their 5 picks to have it come 4.0.

Protect is something all healers are currently expected cross-class. I doubt that will expectation will change in 4.0

Esuna is a skill all healers get in one form or another though SCH has to wait far too long for theirs due to it being a job skill gained at 40 and not a default skill gained at 18. I'm fairly certain it will be expected for all healers to have this skill as well.

Lucid Dream is the "one size fits all" MP management tool replacement for Shroud of Saints, Luminous Aether, and maybe Aetherflow as well (I am unsure if SCH are keeping Aetherflow or if it will still recover MP). needless to say, healers are generally expected to be able to manage their mp without outside help. If SCH keeps Aetherflow as is, then Lucid Dream is an optional (and likely useless) ability for them freeing up a pick. WHM and AST absolutely need this... and SCH will too if they lose mp recovery via Aetherflow. SCH is already guaranteed losing mp recovery from Drain (which is becoming a caster dps role skill).

I don't think skills like Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes etc are essential. Those skills are merely short term self buffs that can be made up for by numbers tuning for each job. If BRD or MCH dps is seen a too low by the devs without those buff they can simply increase the potency of their skills to compensate rather than add more buff actions for them. But most people expect healers to be able to provide Protect, instantly res,and remove debuffs, just as they expect tanks to be able to taunt loose mobs or be able to pick up a boss for a tank swap.

[Fyce]

Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

On the subject of Protect, since Stoneskin is gone, this skill will probably see very heavy changes.

As someone else said, it's one of the most mandatory, yet boring skill there is currently. It's very possible that SE simply adjusted the Def and mDef values by default in order to remove Protect from being mandatory, and gave it a Stoneskin effect.

We might have more info after the press is allowed to release footage of their time in Germany playing Stormblood.
Until then, it's really hard to make even a rough analysis of the situation since there's a lot of unknown data.