Are role actions a nerf?

[Youkulm]

Why should that be bad?

As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ). This leaves 1-2 slots for other actions, on any healer, when before it was 3-4.

It's bad IMO especially when it seems they removed Shroud and Divine Seal from WHM. I don't main WHM but I do play it on occasion and I can tell you I used those CDs all the time. Why remove them from WHM and force them to use a space in what is very limited.

Its silly.

Like I said. Trying not to worry about it too much until I see and play. But from what I can see? It could have been handled better. There was no reason in the world to remove Esuna from all the healers.

I'll leave you with this, this will be a small % of healers, but I promise you will see it Thanks to Nicodemus for typing this out a few posts back.

I wonder what the forums will look like if we start seeing healers in dungeons with these as their shared role actions:

Cleric Stance
Break
Rescue
Surecast
Eye for an Eye

"Healer please cast protect", "Sorry, I don't have Protect"
"Healer please remove this debuff", "Sorry, I don't have Esuna"
"Healer, why is it taking so long to res people?", "Sorry, I don't have Swiftcast"
"Healer why aren't you healing?", "My mp ran out and I don't have Lucid Dream"
"So what CAN you do healer?, "Oh I can give myself a 5% damage buff for 15 seconds, zap a mob and slow it, yank the BLM out of his leylines for the lawls, make myself immune to knockbacks and pulls, and give you a defensive buff with a short duration and long cooldown! "

I know this little fiction is ridiculous and hardly likely to ever happen unless someone is trying to troll groups, but the fact that it's even possible is frightening.

[Neophyte]

It's bad IMO especially when it seems they removed Shroud and Divine Seal from WHM. I don't main WHM but I do play it on occasion and I can tell you I used those CDs all the time. Why remove them from WHM and force them to use a space in what is very limited.

Its silly.

The only silly thing is you, not reading my entire post where i specifically state that:

"I don't know about others, but my first thought looking at this is not "Oh no, WHM/AST only have that optional tool or have to rely on others for MP, while SCH will be even more OP regarding ressources with Aetherflow+ED+SoS", but more like "Well, I'm curious what the main-mechanic to manage your ressources will be on AST/WHM and if my playstyle with those jobs affords that additional optional reg"."


Wow, you are using SoS and DS when playing WHM now? Really? Unbelievable, someone uses his jobs abilities!!!

Still doesn't mean that rolebased mp-reg and heal+ is mandatory. It does not mean that the only way for WHM to compensate their "loss" of SoS and DS is to slot it in their role-based skills.
This can also be compensated by adding new skills or reworking skills, leaving the role based SoS as a 2nd optional mp reg.

[Youkulm]

The only silly thing is you

I did read your post.

I'm glad you can be optimistic which is what I'm trying to do. Most of all since I keep saying that i'd hold any real judgement until we actually get the play the game with the new changes. ( if you'd like to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions that'd be excellent. )

I don't understand why you're being so confrontational. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be concerned.

---

Also if you're refering to an earlier post, my post on the last page was my first reply to this thread. It was in direct response to OP. So if you are refering to something between the pages of 2-8, Sorry I didn't read ALL of the discussion from everyone else. I just wanted to reply to OP and apparently im attacked because of it.

Moving along ;p

[Neophyte]

I did read your post.

I'm glad you can be optimistic which is what I'm trying to do. Most of all since I keep saying that i'd hold any real judgement until we actually get the play the game with the new changes. ( ifyou'd like to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions that'd be excellent. )

I don't understand why you're being so confrontational. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be concerned.

It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

I mean, ypu won't just lose lvl. 6 (CS), lvl. 8 (Protect), lvl. 16 (Esuna), lvl. 38 (SoS) and lvl. 40 (DS) as a WHM and take all 5 back from rolebased because you need them, while SCH only loses lvl 12 (Virus), lvl. 34 (E4E) and lvl. 40 (Leeches), takes those 3 back from rolebased and get OP by just adding a for-WHM-mandatory mp regen plus CS/protect.

They won't just give SCH acces to SoS and done, that's their healer rework, lol.

Also if you're refering to an earlier post, my post on the last page was my first reply to this thread. It was in direct response to OP. So if you are refering to something between the pages of 2-8, Sorry I didn't read ALL of the discussion from everyone else. I just wanted to reply to OP and apparently im attacked because of it.

Moving along ;p

Nope, I was only refering to the qupted post.

_____________________________________________

I mean, sure you can think tha the devs suck balls in regards to balancing.
But don't try to back it with "By now in Heavensward not being able to use skill x, y, z would be very bad, so it will most likely be bad in Stormblood to not be able to use the same-in-name optional skills."


Or just look at Cleric Stance.... by now: Most mandatory ability if you want to deal damage.
In Stormblood: A 5% 15s damage buff on 90s CD therefore buffing your outgoing dps by 0,8% (100% damage uptime, instead of lets say 1000 dps you do 1010ish) to 5% (only dpsing when CS is from CD, so maybe from 200->210 dps).
(I'm aware that those calculations are not exact and maybe set a bit low... but not by much)

That doesn't sound as mandatory as before for a dpsing healer, right?

[Vhailor]

It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

Lest we forget, this is the same development team that seemed oblivious to the flaws inherent in Diadem gear upon release, the same development team that cherry-picks Steps of Faith and Pharos Sirius and declares it to be definitive evidence that challenging (non-Savage) dungeons are bad, the same development team that just relocated servers across the continent and issued an utterly ridiculous statement about there being "no discernable difference" in gameplay if your ping remains below 200ms. They CONSTANTLY make decisions that run the gamut from poorly-implemented to dumb to counter-productive. That's why many of us are viewing these role-based skills with a degree of skepticism.

Another way to look at it is this: the best-case scenario is that SE modified all of these role-based skills, and that they now provide optional 'boosts' to existing abilities. At which point - again, best-case scenario - we basically have the exact same system as we have now, minus the need to level other jobs. I'd still say that's a missed opportunity.

In a worst-case scenario, SE hasn't modified the role-based skills, and we are now staring at a tidal wave of problems centering around the fact that multiple required abilities must now be manually selected by players who might not realize they're essential.

Given the possible gains and possible problems, I think basing our concerns around "I use X ability all the time in Stormblood" is quite reasonable for the moment, pending additional information.

[Neophyte]

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

The problem is the number of abilities that many feel ARE mandatory in the shared role action list, basically limiting or outright removing any choice at all.

What do I consider mandatory for me as a healer?

Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

Swiftcast - Assuming resses aren't made instant cast by default.

Lucid Dream - Assuming each healer isn't getting its own mp recovery tool (and why would they when the goal was to prune things)

Esuna - I consider the ability to cleanse debuffs essential.

That's four out of five picks I can't live without. And if Affection (the ability using the Divine Seal icon) turns out to be Divine Seal and that WHM has lost Divine Seal as a default skill, I'd be VERY hard pressed to choose any of the other choices over it. My role as a healer means that I need to be the best healer I can be and that means having all the tools I feel I need to perform that role.

Now you might say I am making a lot of assumptions here, but I say so are you. You're assuming we'll be getting replacements for all these skills moved into shared role skills or things will change so much that we won't "need" them, and I say that's a hell of an assumption. I can only go by what SE has shown so far. And what they have shown me is that 4 out of 5 of my shared role actions "choices" have already been made for me... 5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all. I'll happily endure any embarrassment if it turns out I am being overly concerned for nothing, but right now I think I am justified with my concern.

[Vhailor]

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

I'd say you're guilty of cherry-picking, here. Cleric's Stance, based on what we know, isn't mandatory. Surecast isn't. Heavy isn't. Nobody's focused on those, however - we're focused on other abilities that ARE currently mandatory, and don't have any announced changes.

Currently, Swiftcast is mandatory. Shroud of Saints and Esuna are mandatory. Protect is mandatory. That's four of the five role-based slots taken up for a White Mage. We have received absolutely NO indication that SE has gone and modified things to make these abilities less crucial (reduced Raise cast time, reduced need for MP / enmity management with Shroud, fewer fights with nasty status effects, etc.). You can hazard a guess that they have done so, but that's an assumption on your part, one that - as I stated before - places an awful lot of faith in a development team known for making boneheaded mistakes. I don't personally have such faith in SE, nor, it appears, do a lot of other people.

More to the point, however, what I need to say right now is whatever the hell it is I feel I need to say right now. You don't get to decide what is necessary for other people to say - they do. I also don't happen to consider this a pointless exercise. It helps determine whether I preorder Stormblood or not; it helps me identify in advance issues I want to examine when the combat changes release; it helps me release whatever degree of stress I'm feeling over pending changes to a job I've played for years now. It also, theoretically, helps SE identify potential problems a month before this system is finished, so that they can either course-correct in advance, or be readying a fix right from the start. Those are all valid reasons for discussing what I know so far, as well as any resulting concerns, with other people on the forums.

That said, I certainly don't begrudge you the right to remain optimistic. You're welcome to. I have no problem with an optimistic point of view. What I don't like is when people who are more optimistic than others attempt to trivialize the well-founded concerns of people who are feeling more pessimistic or concerned. That is essentially what you've done, in my mind, and it's why this reply is on the snarky side.

[magnanimousCynic]

As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ).

Let's be honest, E4E is barely a required skill in most content. It's not something that could make or break your average Expert Roulette.

[SendohJin]

As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ).

Esuna and Eye for Eye are not required. how do AST do 4 man dungeons if E4E is required?

Lots of dungeons and trials have nothing to Esuna.