PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[Taika]

That illustrates the problem that people are imagining (healers watching netflix or other utterly ridiculous notions of being lazy.)

People who are talking about kicking healers are talking about healers who are literally idle, jumping or /dancing or /follow on tank. Healers like this:

Notice how the arguments about "hurr hurr, healer doesn't dps, kick em" tend to align with people don't even play the healer class, it's mainly tanks saying this.

It's hard to say anything about which jobs people play based on their forum accounts, but I can say I've been a healer main in this game in 1.0.

If DPS people are saying this, then they should be the one who is kicked, because that comes across as a demand to be carried. If a tank says it, it's saying that the tank doesn't believe the DPS are competent.

This has been said a billion times, but no one is asking healers to DPS to cover for DDs. People are asking healers to DPS because otherwise (apart from specific situations, of course) healers are being much less active than their party members, and that's not fair.

Making entitled demands of PUG's is just arrogant.

It's not entitled to ask for your party members to participate in an equal manner. And the exact same thing (trying to be as active as possible in a meaningful way) is asked from every single party member. The difference is, healer players tend to be the only ones that try to argue why it would be ok to leave a vital part of their toolkit unused. You don't see any "I'm a BRD but I shouldn't be asked to sing/DPS" threads here.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That illustrates the problem that people are imagining (healers watching netflix or other utterly ridiculous notions of being lazy.)

Notice how the arguments about "hurr hurr, healer doesn't dps, kick em" tend to align with people don't even play the healer class, it's mainly tanks saying this. Y'know the other class that can re-queue in the duty finder rather quickly.

If DPS people are saying this, then they should be the one who is kicked, because that comes across as a demand to be carried. If a tank says it, it's saying that the tank doesn't believe the DPS are competent. If a healer wants to DPS, they can DPS, but if you force them to DPS, then it's going to be a miserable run as you repeatedly wipe, thus being counter-productive.

If you have a static that works well together you can figure out what people are best at, and leave it at that. Making entitled demands of PUG's is just arrogant.

Siiigh. Can we stop with this nonsense?

DPS aren't being carried. They are asking you not stand around doing nothing. If DPSing means you allow the tank to die, you're either a bad player or inexperienced and need more practice. I had a Dun Scaith run the other night with roughly 80-85% Cleric uptime. I literally did not turn it off once throughout the second boss. And not for "muh deeps" but because the Astro co-healer had everything covered. If I hadn't been DPSing, I would have been next to useless. Basically, you are saying it's perfectly acceptable I do nothing at all, but if the DPS or tank question me, the former just sucks.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The difference is, healer players tend to be the only ones that try to argue why it would be ok to leave a vital part of their toolkit unused.

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

Edit: Lovely limits.

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation.

I'll concede SCH Aetherflow/energy drain, but neither Holy or Assize are mechanics, like BotD, Enochian, or Wrath/Abandon, all of which revolve around both dealing damage and wrap back around to support the rest of the job's kit. Holy and Assize would be more akin to a BLM dropping Apoc on a weakened player or a MCH using Rend Mind: Nice to have, but is a utility that doesn't actually feed back into their kit.

[Greedalox]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

How are you making an absurd argument that Healers don't have DPS attributes when 1/4 to 1/3 of theirs kits are DPS skills?

[Taika]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources.

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation? :P

I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game.

[Faliandra]

Notice how the arguments about "hurr hurr, healer doesn't dps, kick em" tend to align with people don't even play the healer class, it's mainly tanks saying this.

really? I see quite a few main healers speaking up FOR healer dps, count me in there too.btw.
Some of my friends may not main healers,but they do feel like healing every once in a while and usually dps too.

Not gonna comment on the rest of your post, plenty of others already covered that already.

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation? :P

I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game.

I have been wondering for a while now if there even is any particular use for skills like Holy outside of group content.
Not sure how well a lvling healer in sub-par lvling gear can handle tanking several mobs without dying while holy'ing away carelessly.

IMO just another hint that healers shouldnt shy away from dishing in some dps in dungeons.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

Edit: Lovely limits.



I'll concede SCH Aetherflow/energy drain, but neither Holy or Assize are mechanics, like BotD, Enochian, or Wrath/Abandon, all of which revolve around both dealing damage and wrap back around to support the rest of the job's kit. Holy and Assize would be more akin to a BLM dropping Apoc on a weakened player or a MCH using Rend Mind: Nice to have, but is a utility that doesn't actually feed back into their kit.

For ease of transition. Tank mitigation is no different than healer DPS. I'll press Shadowwall/Vengeance when I see a tank buster coming or pull half the room and forget about it. Both roles have reduced complexity regarding damage because they play duo roles and have to split their focus. DPS have dedicated and fairly complex rotations because their only focus is damage. Are you honestly positing the devs intended healers to have as low as 20% activity? If so, it's incredibly poor game design when I'll spend more time cycling through my emotes than I will contributing to the dungeon clear.

[Fyce]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

You don't have a complex DPS "rotation" as a healer because you should be going back and forth between healing skills and damage skills. In short terms, you have way less GCDs allowed per time frame dedicated to DPSing. The "mechanic" is the switching itself. There's no need to add another layer of complexity since you can only throw 4-5 GCDs before having to get back healing anyway. In normal circumstances, that is.

Besides, your role already revolves around figuring when are these time windows where you can DPS, and when you should be healing (and what healing skill you should use).

Really, healers don't need more complex mechanisms linked to their DPS skills. It's not because the skills themselves are quite "vanilla" that it means that the job isn't already complex enough.

[Felis]

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation? :P

I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game.

If you say healers, do you also have an example for AST (except Gravity spam that eat away the MP)?

[Greedalox]

If you say healers, do you also have an example for AST (except Gravity spam that eat away the MP)?

Gravity. AST get Luminiferous Aether and the Ewer, it's okay to chunk your mana. You don't get to ask for examples while simultaneously exempting viable examples lol.