PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[Faliandra]

Gods that would be a disaster... I've seen these "pure healers" in action, first heal check everyone is dead. I think people need to forget this narrative they try to push about how they are better healers cause they just focus on healing. The real story is they are pure healers cause they have the reaction time of a sloth and want an easy ride.

(I never thought i'd have to teach someone how to precast a heal til one joined my FC...)

I wish I could disagree but this is also exactly the experience I usually get to make. Pure Healers being slow af.......This is actually the reason why I wish they'd make healing checks harder so the ones hoping for the easy ride
would swap to something else.

I also dont ever see people precasting heals in casual content tbh. Wonder why.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yup, my last experience in that fight was with a no-DPS AST, so I first let her solo heal --> couldn't keep tanks up in add phase... In the end, I ended up doing DPS and healing more than this AST on my WHM.

Based on my experiences, often it seems the healers who don't DPS don't know how to use their heals and buffs correctly, and because of that their healing is ineffective (spamming cure II when Divine Seal regen would do, using Medica right after Medica II to cancel the usefulness of the regen, not shielding tanks for tank busters, not utilising Virus, Disable and Eye for an Eye etc.) and they're running out of MP. Learning to DPS as a healer requires one to know when and how much damage is coming and also how to use your abilities as effectively as possible to create room for that DPS.

I had the exact same problem. The WHM even yelled at me for "thinking this is PvP with her PvP gear on."The DRK eventually chimed in when said WHM complained about running out of mana... before the add phase even started. Found out the supposed good healer who opted to lecture me on stance dancing despite the fact they never turned on Cleric did little more than spam CureII/Medica II for practically everything.

The majority of my bad experiences with co-healers have been ones where I let them heal and they cannot adapt to the sudden responsibility yet still won't DPS if I decide to take over healing for them. Most hybrid healers who want to share responsibilities between us have been a dream to work with.

[akaneakki]

So you're also OK with DPS jobs doing the minimum damage to clear the content within the given time frame? Hell yeah for 60 minute DF dungeons.

You got me very wrong. I'm saying thats the mentality of others who doesn't want to contribute as a healer, as in goofing around before the group needs healing.

[Belhi]

Yup, my last experience in that fight was with a no-DPS AST, so I first let her solo heal --> couldn't keep tanks up in add phase... In the end, I ended up doing DPS and healing more than this AST on my WHM.

Based on my experiences, often it seems the healers who don't DPS don't know how to use their heals and buffs correctly, and because of that their healing is ineffective (spamming cure II when Divine Seal regen would do, using Medica right after Medica II to cancel the usefulness of the regen, not shielding tanks for tank busters, not utilising Virus, Disable and Eye for an Eye etc.) and they're running out of MP. Learning to DPS as a healer requires one to know when and how much damage is coming and also how to use your abilities as effectively as possible to create room for that DPS.

It doesn't really any more. DPS as a healer now just involves spending a GCD on a damage spell instead of a healing spell. Honestly the difference between a decent healer and a great healer is somewhat reduced with sadly the ceiling coming down rather than the floor coming up.

Honestly I have seen bad healers who pure heal and bad healers who dps. I haven't noticed a distinct correlation. Bad healers are bad healers. Often dps who try healing have a bad habit of tunnel visioning on the enemies while dpsing and not paying enough attention to their party. That is more often an issue I run into with bad healers. Healers too focused on dpsing and letting a tank die in a large pull or not switching to heals before people start dropping dead from AoE damage.

I actually wonder if the changes are going to make more people want to play healers. Honestly this is the first time since I started playing I have seriously considered changing to another role. SE doesn't seem to be actually fixing the issues with healer gameplay and the dps aspect has had any skill requirement removed from it and I think it will be a miracle if the same balance issues that happened in HW don't end up happening again due to the flaws in the healer meta.

[dlgc]

The removal of the need to stance-dance is indeed a positive move in the right direction, I am sure those of us who dd as healers have encountered the horror of toggling Cleric Stance on/off numerous times in the past.

However the mentality of some players just makes me befuddled, and that's me putting it nicely.

I have always played the healing role in MMORPGs, such as Rapplez, Tera, etc. One of my habits when I start playing the healing role is to find out what kind of dd skills are available to my class. This will take a bit of practice, but most of the time I can tell how much/little dd I will be able to do, by the time my group finishes off the first pull of mobs.

Most of us don't have a problem with players who are still learning the ropes of being a healer, nor players who are affected by real-life issues. The issue lies with players who know their skills through and through, and yet refuse to play their classes optimally, refusing to really let their healers shine through!

We are not expecting you to contribute the most damage output, nor ask you to abandon your primary role. When there is a wide time-frame in which no healing is needed, instead of reading about Toenail Fungus, or watching the latest episode of Log Horizon, or etc., why not throw in a few skills. . . at least some dots to help things along?

Someone mentioned about MP issues, to that I only have one thing to say, "Monitoring and controlling your own MP usage is one of the most fundamental aspects of playing a caster class".

To those who claim that healers should only play their given role: heal. To that I counter, "Does it mean you are okay with letting 15% or more of your skills gather dust? What about skills such as PLD's Clemency, or MNK's Mantra?"

Think of a lvl. 60 BLM, instead of using his lvl.60 rotation, he sticks with using the lvl.50 rotation. He is a dd-er, and he is indeed doing damage. But it is nowhere near the optimal that a lvl. 60 BLM can do.

Remember, you are playing with other ppl(some might only have an hour to unwind after a long day of work), show others some common courtesy(at the same time show yourself off as a healer), try your best to play the healing classes to their fullest potential!

Cheers,
D.

[Belhi]

I don't actually see PLDs use Clemency very often and likewise I don't see MNKs use Mantra. As a general rule its pretty rare to see dps actually use their utility skills that don't actually increase their damage output.

Regardless, if dps is going to be a core part of healer gameplay, they could at least make it interesting and interactive with the rest of the Job rather than being tacked on to the side.

[Lesan]

I dont care about that changes. lol

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

Why people think healer classes have to do 2 jobs and tank and dps classes only do 1 job..?

Once DPS's or Tanks has the same healspells healer has, only then I will DPS as healer in groups too! o_o

The correct stance should be 'Once DPS or Tanks dodge avoidable crap instead of being greedy for some statistics in a third party tool' instead.

[Lesan]

Epic Snippage

One of the issues with Cleric Stance that I, personally, had, was the fact that Healer Stance dancing was, compared to any other 'Stance Dance' in the game, unfair. By design, without it, DPS Skills would be wasted MP, while otherwise, with it enabled, Healing skills would be wasted MP.

Bard and Machinist lock out SOME of their skills, when they don't use their Caster Stance. But they still scale off the same abilities, they just do not perform at full.
The same goes for Tanks, especially noticeable so on the Warrior, they still scale off the same Attributes, and, with a few exceptions, still have access to most of their toolkit at a useable performance.
The current Cleric Stance, however, is basically comparable to a Warrior whose 'Damage Taken' would be fixed to '100%' when in Deliverance, even when stacking every single defensive cooldown, while use of Defiance would turn the 'Attack Power' Stat into a flat, nondamaging Enmity value that then gets further multiplicated with Enmity Modifiers. It invalidates one half of the Skillset, to boost the other half.

Actually, I think 'Cleric Stance' is one of the first skills that can get ditched outside of explicit speedrunning or hyper-optimized static group play. The same, in 2-Healer content, goes for Protect and Esuna, 1 Healer each can bring it, done. Especially with the apparent abolishment of the 30s wait between Job/Class/Skill Changes.

[Belhi]

One of the issues with Cleric Stance that I, personally, had, was the fact that Healer Stance dancing was, compared to any other 'Stance Dance' in the game, unfair. By design, without it, DPS Skills would be wasted MP, while otherwise, with it enabled, Healing skills would be wasted MP.

Bard and Machinist lock out SOME of their skills, when they don't use their Caster Stance. But they still scale off the same abilities, they just do not perform at full.
The same goes for Tanks, especially noticeable so on the Warrior, they still scale off the same Attributes, and, with a few exceptions, still have access to most of their toolkit at a useable performance.
The current Cleric Stance, however, is basically comparable to a Warrior whose 'Damage Taken' would be fixed to '100%' when in Deliverance, even when stacking every single defensive cooldown, while use of Defiance would turn the 'Attack Power' Stat into a flat, nondamaging Enmity value that then gets further multiplicated with Enmity Modifiers. It invalidates one half of the Skillset, to boost the other half.

Actually, I think 'Cleric Stance' is one of the first skills that can get ditched outside of explicit speedrunning or hyper-optimized static group play. The same, in 2-Healer content, goes for Protect and Esuna, 1 Healer each can bring it, done. Especially with the apparent abolishment of the 30s wait between Job/Class/Skill Changes.

The difference is that healer dps is painfully simplistic and healers weren't designed with dpsing in mind. It was more tacked on to the side to allow for soloing. Tank classes were designed with intentional dps rotations and with he expectation that they would be dpsing. The very reason cleric stance existed was to allow healers to solo. Yoshi P was pretty clear that healers dpsing in instanced content wasn't intentional design.

This seems to have changed, at least from the change to cleric stance. The issue is that none of the other design has been changed to accommodate it. All they have done is made healer dps more simple and frankly as a result more boring. If healers are meant to dps they should have their dps as a core aspect of their design, not an afterthought tacked onto the side of their healer design.

[Hamada]

We had some pure healers yesterday in A12N. The party wiped twice at the end of the fight. Both healers had nearly full mp bars. Once the tanks (who were mitigating) went down, the party slowly collapsed until we wiped. Twice.

Pure healers =/= good healers.

I do agree on "Pure healers =/= good healers" but this story is not proof of that. Just because they where pure healing does not mean they where doing it well. (Idk how a tank dies having a full healer who is also using defense cds) regardless if you REALLY want to blame lacking of total DPS, then DPS are to blame in that. No reason to have lack of dps in a12N even with no DPS healers.