Thread: Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I'd rather we get our own stuff than borrow toys from the other classes. Down that road lies homogenized healers.

If SE really cared about that then AST would be entirely different then what it is now.

Originally Posted by Acidblood

I'm starting to think they designed WHM for PvP first, then copied the mechanics across to PvE and adjusted it in a spreadsheet to meet some overall 'healing power' number; would explain a lot...

It's almost mind blowing how true this starts to look the more you think about it. Yoshi-P has a real big crush with PvP, Fluid Aura, Sleep, etc.

Originally Posted by IhzaMhaskova

Stoneskin's base cast time on WHM is 2.5s (Quick Stoneskin trait).
...
It's not the best skill, but it absolutely had its uses.

The stupid part of Stoneskin when they changed it from 18% for the now (and soon to be gone) Quick Stoneskin trait was they didn't even bother with adjusting the MP values to match the new 10% shield value.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Do they really though? Because I am struggling to find White Mage's niche. They...

- are not the strongest single target healer
- are the worst mitigation healer
- are the worst utility healer
- are debatably better at aoe healing

Therefore, we are left with damage. This could work were it significant enough to offset the aforementioned drawbacks, however that just isn't the case with Balance still existing. All in all, the only niche I see them filling are in casual content. Of course, we'll see what potential changes come in a week.

I've been trying to do some potency crunches based off the current numbers and here are my results. Please be advised these are with currently known numbers that are subject to change at release and I wouldn't mind other players to proof read my work either since nothing is perfect.

I've tried to simulate total healing potential over a course of three minutes using a 2.5s GCD and with 0s oGCDs just for the sake of easy calculations. In total all three healers get 72 GCDs every 3 minutes to work with the one exception PoM gives WHM two additional GCD (they get 8 GCDs in the same time frame all other healers would get 6 with the 15s duration of PoM). I've also tried to account for Largresse up time and any beneficial procs such as Enhanced Benefic and Freecure. I've made notes on some of my thoughts in the right most column as well. I didn't include Lily's in the calculation though overall this simulation would generate the WHM 21 Lilies and more than enough to fuel Divine Benison.

Please also be advised that in general healer's never have 100% healing uptime and this simulation is only to show absolute potentials. How they'll be applied in practice will be completely up to raid design and any number changes that'll occur with release.

I've split the result into three categories - absolute total potency; total potency using purely oGCDs and HoT (free / passive healing); and total MP consumed and you can find that below:

D.AST
Total Potency: 57,442
HoT / oGCD Potency: 19,868
MP Consumed: 46,560

N.AST
Total Potency: 56,414
HoT / oGCD Potency: 8,500
MP Consumed: 46,560

SCH
Total Potency: 54,270
HoT / oGCD Potency: 20,420
MP Consumed: 54,000

WHM
Total Potency: 53,875
HoT / oGCD Potency: 21,155
MP Consumed: 40,560


So in general WHM has the lowest overall single target potential but has some of the highest, I will say, passive potential in their oGCDs and HoTs. They also consume the lowest MP out of the three healers to reach their potency numbers by a fairly decent margin (at least 10% lower than all other healers). Take into account that the numbers don't account for Thin Air either and I don't account for MP regeneration tools. In general, I'd surmise that WHMs are now the energizer bunnies of the healers and can go on for days up days of healing.

Just like there were advocates of adjusting playstyles to allow for AST/SCH to take hold, raids employing a WHM will need to change from the current optimal strategy of having healer's share responsibilities and double down on the Main Heal/Off Heal strategy employed greatly in the 2.0 era. WHMs will thrive in taking a higher responsibility of healing just by the nature of their way their kit works. It is counter intuitive to how healers are played in general and is also the crux of the main complaints towards the current WHM kit.

I don't think WHM is badly off one would think but the kit is extremely counter-intuitive mess compared to the streamlined nature of AST and SCH and thus harder to simulate compared to their competition.

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So in general WHM has the lowest overall single target potential but has some of the highest, I will say, passive potential in their oGCDs and HoTs. They also consume the lowest MP out of the three healers to reach their potency numbers by a fairly decent margin (at least 10% lower than all other healers). Take into account that the numbers don't account for Thin Air either and I don't account for MP regeneration tools. In general, I'd surmise that WHMs are now the energizer bunnies of the healers and can go on for days up days of healing.

Just like there were advocates of adjusting playstyles to allow for AST/SCH to take hold, raids employing a WHM will need to change from the current optimal strategy of having healer's share responsibilities and double down on the Main Heal/Off Heal strategy employed greatly in the 2.0 era. WHMs will thrive in taking a higher responsibility of healing just by the nature of their way their kit works. It is counter intuitive to how healers are played in general and is also the crux of the main complaints towards the current WHM kit.

I don't think WHM is badly off one would think but the kit is extremely counter-intuitive mess compared to the streamlined nature of AST and SCH and thus harder to simulate compared to their competition.

A few questions about it.
I get not including Lightspeed/Thin Air to an extent since using it could be considered extra. Lucid Dreaming would cancel out so moot.
Tho Lustrate and Assize are unusable without the MP recovery, so its harder to ignore that part of MP gain in the calculations. On the note of Lustrate, why 6 instead of 9? In a 3 min test it should end just before being able to use your 4th Aetherflow for uses 10-12. I'm running this under the assumption the test begins with the need to use Aetherflow to get 3 charges.
Since its a single target test, how are you calculating confession stacks per use of Plenary Indulgence?
Assuming as such, but anyways, was Dissipation ignored in favor of embrace count? (practically speaking probably a better idea for a SCH, to keep the faerie over the healing boost)

And WHM has always felt like the strongest solo healer, to me at least, this math at least seems to agree with that. Time will tell if another Odin Trial type fight can prove it to be true in the 4.X series.

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

3. Job skills

- White Mages have access to the fewest skills of all 3 healers:
WHM: Spells in List: 26....................Spells after consolidation: 22....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 0.............Total Usable Abilities: 22
SCH: Spells in List: 30......................Spells after consolidation: 28....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Faerie).Total Usable Abilities: 36
AST: Spells in List: 29......................Spells after Consolidation: 27...................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Cards).Total Usable Abilities: 33*
** We understand that AST cards are RNG oriented. This is why they are so powerful. This does not mean the WHM can't have access to weak abilities that are reliable and consistent to make up for situations when you have a WHM/AST or WHM/SCH.

Is it really too much to ask that you look at the list and say, "Hey, WHM has fewer skills than the other two healers, why don't we go back and fill out their lower level abilities and spells to pad out and fill gaps for abilities that we took from them?" How could something like this escape quality assessment especially in an expansion where the balance between us healers was supposed to be a focus?

- Why are Faeries/Cards considered in the above? Simple: Summoners have been begging since 2.X for more egis to summon and every time Square-Enix has replied no citing that ability numbers had to be similar across all jobs. I (yes, I the OP) just want to make sure they are holding themselves accountable to that statement.

I believe this should be a more accurate count:

WHM: Spells in List: 25....................Spells after consolidation: 21....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 0.............Total Usable Abilities: 21
SCH: Spells in List: 26......................Spells after consolidation: 23....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Faerie).Total Usable Abilities: 31
AST: Spells in List: 28......................Spells after Consolidation: 24...................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Cards).Total Usable Abilities: 32*

Here's the full spell lists:

WHM

1. Stone (Consolidated)
2. Cure
3. Aero (Consolidated)
4. Medica
5. Raise
6. Fluid Aura
7. Stone II (Consolidated)
8. Repose
9. Cure II
10. Cure III
11. Aero II
12. Medica II
13. Pressence of Mind
14. Regen
15. Holy
16. Benediction
17. Asylum
18. Stone III (Consolidated)
19. Assize
20. Aero III
21. Tetragammaton
22. Thin Air
23. Stone IV
24. Divine Benison
25. Plenary Indulgence

AST

1. Malefic (Consolidated)
2. Benefic
3. Combust (Consolidated)
4. Lightspeed
5. Helios
6. Ascend
7. Essential Dignity
8. Benefic II
9. Draw
10. Diurnal Sect
11. Undraw (Consolidated)
12. Aspected Benefic
13. Royal Road
14. Spread
15. Aspeted Helios
16. Redraw
17. Combust II
18. Nocturnal Sect
19. Synastry
20. Gravity
21. Malefic II (Consolidated)
22. Time Dilation
23. Collective Unconciousness
24. Celestial Opposition
25. Earthly Star
26. Malefic III
27. Minor Arcana
28. Sleeve Draw

SCH

1. Ruin (Consolidated)
2. Bio (Consolidated)
3. Summon
4. Physick
5. Aetherflow
6. Energy Drain
7. Miasma
8. Summon II
9. Resurrection
10. Bio II
11. Bane
12. Ruin II
13. Rouse
14. Shadow Flare
15. Adloquium
16. Succor
17. Sacred Soil
18. Lustrate
19. Indomitability
20. Broil (Consolidated)
21. Deployment Tactics
22. Emergency Tactics
23. Dissipation
24. Excogtanion
25. Broil II
26. Chain Strategem
27. Aetherpact (Removed and Included in the Pet Section)
28. Fey Union (Removed and Included in the Pet Section)

I still believe its a misnomer to include the card effects towards the AST ability count but it's up to you how you wish to present it. You can find my argument why in this post.

[edit]

Originally Posted by OcieKo

A few questions about it.
I get not including Lightspeed/Thin Air to an extent since using it could be considered extra. Lucid Dreaming would cancel out so moot.
Tho Lustrate and Assize are unusable without the MP recovery, so its harder to ignore that part of MP gain in the calculations. On the note of Lustrate, why 6 instead of 9? In a 3 min test it should end just before being able to use your 4th Aetherflow for uses 10-12. I'm running this under the assumption the test begins with the need to use Aetherflow to get 3 charges.

Excogitation consumes an aetherflow stack and has a 50 potency higher heal on 60s CD so it's better to use for overall healing effectiveness. I will include the extra 3 Lustrates though.

New Values:

D.AST
Total Potency: 57,442
HoT / oGCD Potency: 19,868
MP Consumed: 46,560

N.AST
Total Potency: 56,414
HoT / oGCD Potency: 8,500
MP Consumed: 46,560

SCH
Total Potency: 56,070
HoT / oGCD Potency: 22,220
MP Consumed: 54,000

WHM
Total Potency: 53,875
HoT / oGCD Potency: 21,155
MP Consumed: 40,560

The extra 3 Lustrates does push WHM down for the top contender on the passive healing front.


In terms of MP regen, I chose to ignore that for now since we don't know exactly how much MP they'll be regenerating. I don't believe ther's been any clips on how much MP / tick Lucid Dreaming gives back nor am I sure what the current MP pools are for SCH and WHM to calculate the MP recovery Assize and Aetherflow.

I do like you pointing it out is a good thing as it's difficult to depict exactly what the MP consumption for each healer is like but it remains an important talking point when dealing with each healer's effective MP pool.

[EDIT2]

Originally Posted by OcieKo

Since its a single target test, how are you calculating confession stacks per use of Plenary Indulgence?

I just went under the assumption that the tank will always have one confession stack. When you're curing as often as this simulates it's not hard to think that the probability will occur that the tank will get one stack every 20 seconds. It's a bit of a conservative estimate but you'll generally want to spend PI as soon as the opportunity presents itself as each additional stack only gives another 100 potency compared to the 400 initial potency. PI is going to be a hard ability to judge overall because as fights get easier and easier due to gear, the WHM will generate less and less confession stacks as there is just less to heal.

Originally Posted by OcieKo

Assuming as such, but anyways, was Dissipation ignored in favor of embrace count? (practically speaking probably a better idea for a SCH, to keep the faerie over the healing boost)

Yes, Dissipation is ignored for Embrace. It's hard to gauge if Dissipation will come into play for SCH in 4.0 until we see how the Fairy Gauge interacts with summons. The lower potency on Embrace will mean a larger reliance on Fey Union to make up the lost potency. Dissipation being able to generate more stacks will affect that. Additionally, if resummong a fairy will precharge the gauge it'll also be in the SCH's interest to re-summon the fairy often for higher spikes heals, though this will generally cost them both MP and Switftcast. Dissipation will also help with this since you're at least making some use of the fairy sacrifice though depending on the fight it might not be worth the loss of the Fairy.

If anything the lower Embrace potency will mean Dissipation is slightly more palatable since 3x Lustrate will definitely out heal the loss of the Fairy for that duration.

Originally Posted by Acidblood

I'm starting to think they designed WHM for PvP first, then copied the mechanics across to PvE and addjusted it in a spreadsheet to meet some overall 'healing power' number; would explain a lot...

It really does feel that way. It would explain why we kept Repose of all things.
Plenary Indulgence and the lily system in general sounds PERFECT in PvP content. Borderline broken for a healer even.
I seriously hope this isn't the case. WHM, one of the most iconic jobs in the series being isolated into PvP play in a PvE heavy game sounds awful and unfair.

@Divine Seal being lost: The only job this hurt is WHM. SCH still has its healing CDs, AST already had a 20% healing buff so they haven't lost anything, but they did retain their synastry effect to double heal, which effectively makes their healing CD completely better. Not to mention they have a permanent 15% healing buff on everything.

The decision to bring Divine Seal into crossrole is mind boggling. It just doesn't make sense no matter which way I look at it.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It really does feel that way. It would explain why we kept Repose of all things.

Except not really. Come 4.0 PVE and PVP skills will be completely separate, so Repose as a PVE skill can't be used in PVP. Hell, Repose isn't even a 4.0 PVP Action!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002069.html

SO WHY ARE WE KEEPING REPOSE IN 4.0? This isn't even about me being mad about losing Stoneskin anymore. I'm simply dumbfounded that a skill that mainly saw use in PVP is not only being removed from PVP, but being kept in PVE where the # of useful situations are nearly non-existent!

EDIT #1: On the topic of PVP, what will PVP ranks do once 4.0 hits? Will they be purely for achievements or will you still need them to unlock PVP actions/traits?