PvP abilities will be almost entirely different from PvE ones in SB. Don't even consider them to be related. And before you go suspecting that "PvP abilities are effecting my PvE", look at it instead that they "had an idea for a new playstyle mechanic and implemented a version in both PvE and PvP".
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
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06-07-2017 08:19 AM #1Player
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
- Posts
- 431
- Character
- Seolla Viltara
- World
- Jenova
- Main Class
- Scholar Lv 80
(1)
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06-07-2017 09:21 AM #2Player
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Location
- Gridania
- Posts
- 680
- Character
- Keridwyn Maeve
- World
- Coeurl
- Main Class
- White Mage Lv 90
If these values are also the same in PvE then I can start seeing value in them. If we know we have a 100% lily from cure 2 (and presumably procs from at least cure as well) the question becomes which skills need what reduction. Is 150s Benediction worth 3 casts of Cure 2?
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
We might all prefer the lilies give us something else but those CD reduction percentages are higher than what a lot of folks suggested as a fix.
That might tide us over for a couple months, long enough for them to design and test a couple of new skills to fix the gaps in our kit. We wouldn't be healthy but we wouldn't be in as dire of straights.(1)
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06-07-2017 01:05 PM #3Player
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Posts
- 711
- Character
- Hazel Korhonen
- World
- Hyperion
- Main Class
- Paladin Lv 80
The possibility of having Assize up twice per minute plus Thin Air plus Lucid Dreaming is much more MP than what SCH can ever get in Heavensward, which is one of the job's main strengths, so WHM's MP sustain will be hands down the best in the game if this is the case. This, of course, translates to much better DPS uptime, specially coupled with the changes to Cleric Stance and all the oGCD tools WHM has. WHM might even be able to go without Lucid Dreaming and use that for another Skill slot, tbh, something which the other two healers can't do, from the looks of it.
Originally Posted by Keridwyn
I know having to cast Cure II to ensure a Lilly proc is far from ideal, but this is a very big fix that I think could be a precedent for other good news, like Regens causing procs, or Confesion stacks not being used up when a target is healed by Plenary Indulgence.
tl;dr: I think this means the devs are listening about the most unhelpful or useless features, and seem to be going to lengths in order to give WHM an actually improved toolkit for SB instead of just slapping a 12 second spellspring and calling it a day.
Honestly, if Lillies could proc out of Regen and group healing and they keep that amount of CD reduction for PvE instead of just PvP, WHM playstyle would be pretty enticing, imo, specially considering the Cleric Stance change and how it affects Assize. I think Plenary Indulgence needs a slight buff to make the direct healing playstyle more viable for promoting Assize spam, but it does open up more possibilities, so I think WHM is headed in a better direction.
Of course, this will hardly change the meta so long as Balance exists, but I think in general WHM mains should stop giving themselves so much bad PR now that we're aware of this. I hate to say it, but if the stories of WHMs getting kicked just cause they're WHM are true, AST and SCH mains would be the last people I'd accuse of being at fault, since they're not the ones that are so vocal about WHM being dead :/(2)
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06-07-2017 09:05 AM #4Player
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
- Posts
- 876
- Character
- Imbri Undinare
- World
- Kujata
- Main Class
- Paladin Lv 90
As many have already said, I will just repeat for emphasis:
* Why bring a WHM when you can have The Balance and Chain Strategem and not loose any healing power?
* Why, when SMNs have been told over and over again that they can't have more egis for this very reason, is there such a clear discrepancy in the number of skills and abilities a WHM has over SCH and AST? This number shrinks even smaller when skills are consolidated.
* Why did we lose the only native mitigation spell we were going to have in 4.0 (stoneskin) only to have it replaced at 66 with a far inferior skill leaving us with nothing 1-66? We knew we would be losing protect to cross-role, but why did we have to lose stoneskin?
* Why has SE continued to distribute our spells (now removing) without giving us anything to replace them?
* Why is our new job mechanic revolved around something an AST can do with a single card, but better?! Theirs works for all abilities used within 30 seconds, ours works for ONE.
* How is our level 70 spell supposed to help us when it can only heal the people we've healed most likely to full HP within 30 seconds of said heal? In the vast majority of all cases, that person is going to be either one or both tanks.
While I don't want to butt in on a fight, I just wanted to chime in that Valefor (JP server) is also beginning to have some PF groups bar WHM from 4.0 raid groups advertising for AST/SCH instead. So it's not just the NA servers this is happening on. Just neutral information, I'm not trying to pick a side.
Originally Posted by LegoTechnic
The problem with this idea, is skills that you're going to use between those cures and getting lilies are going to consume all of your lilies so saving them for the oGCD you actually want to shorten isn't practical.
Originally Posted by javid
(10)Last edited by Reiryuu; 06-07-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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06-07-2017 09:15 AM #5Player
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Location
- Ul'Dah
- Posts
- 5,377
- Character
- Cassandra Solidor
- World
- Cactuar
- Main Class
- Dragoon Lv 90
Honestly? The more I dwell on White Mage, the more I feel it's primary issue is... it doesn't feel like a mainline job. Compared to Scholar, and especially, Astro, it almost feels like White Mage is the class you promptly upgrade once you've grown accustom to healing. There just isn't an identity or sense of progression. This plagued both White Mage and Paladin throughout Heavensward. Unfortunately, only one of them received the long needed love.
(11)Last edited by Bourne_Endeavor; 06-07-2017 at 09:18 AM.
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06-07-2017 10:53 AM #6Player
- Join Date
- Jun 2017
- Posts
- 35
- Character
- Scorpius O-ra-e
- World
- Coeurl
- Main Class
- Summoner Lv 70
Don't know if anyone thought of this yet but what if they made it so WHM got a lilly every 8th or 12th regen tick (in total from the whole party.) The ticks would actually have to heal things and this allows better control of lily creation. I mean I'd also hope that they buff the duration reduction a bit but idk how effective it currently is. Idrk much about WHM, I really wanna play, but even I can tell their getting shafted and this update has all but ruined my motivation.
Either way that's my contribution to this whole kerfuffle.(1)
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06-07-2017 11:10 AM #7Player
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
- Posts
- 876
- Character
- Imbri Undinare
- World
- Kujata
- Main Class
- Paladin Lv 90
The problem still persists. At this point: Why would you want lilies? Sure, reduced cooldowns are nice... I guess... but we're already getting reduced cooldowns from what we've been playing with... and it's still just a spear card on one ability for all your lilies. Doesn't seem worth it.
Originally Posted by ScorpiusO-Ra-E
(4)
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06-07-2017 11:07 AM #8Player
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
- Location
- Ul-Dah
- Posts
- 3,927
- Character
- Khuja'to Binbotaj
- World
- Hyperion
- Main Class
- Paladin Lv 100
My feedback: Can we get a test realm please? If job changes are going to be like this, which they have been very much so throughout HW as well, I feel like we need a way to balance and filter changes using open test means.
(12)
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06-07-2017 11:29 AM #9Player
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Posts
- 1,660
- Character
- Sharl Llyntine
- World
- Jenova
- Main Class
- White Mage Lv 100
All in all, while the ways to get lilies is a problem, the main problem is that CD reduction as a mechanic is extremely boring and underwhelming.
Originally Posted by Reiryuu
While everyone got new toys to play with, we kept our same old stuff, but can use it slightly faster. Even having access to the CDs faster isn't technically a good thing. Healing doesn't require you to pop OGCDs as soon as they come up, you save them for either an emergency or a specific burst of damage.
Also just want to say, to the people thinking we're overreacting. We just don't want to be stuck with an underwhelming and boring job system for 2 years like MCH and Bard were. SE isn't perfect. Everyone can benefit from criticism.(12)
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06-07-2017 12:15 PM #10Player
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
- Posts
- 251
- Character
- Shima Kyaro
- World
- Excalibur
- Main Class
- White Mage Lv 100
I feel like a lot of this thread and the community reaction to this has been nothing but a disappointing embarrassment. Half of the complaints are low-key begging for AST nerfs, and I don't even know how many are coming from players who parrot the first thing they hear about meta this and meta that like it's gospel.
What makes a class desirable right now, one week from expansion in content we overgear and have on farm in encounters that have been designed a certain way has no bearing on what will make a class desirable in content we're undergeared for, inexperienced with, and may be designed in a way that facilitates the strengths of one class over another. How many people trashed Dark Knight at the beginning of 3.0 before running into Magic Damage tank busters that they were needed for? On top of that, there's no reason for White Mage to be the "meta" pick for all time. There are 3 healers and two healer spots. As people begin to out-skill and overgear the content it's natural that WHM will phase out because people don't need its healing anymore.
I feel like the majority of these complaints are bubbling frustration from the AST overbuffs, with people acting like a raid environment where damage is the only thing that matters is somehow healthy and what we need to be striving to be competitive with as WHMs. This is, imo, a symptom of a much larger problem that's going to continue to get worse as time goes on as long as damage damage damage is all that matters to every class in all content. That's the bigger problem to get a handle on.
Are lillies/confessions counter-intuitive to the way WHM works? Somewhat. If someone is telling you they don't cast cures they're a liar, especially in progression content or undergeared content where regens alone get you killed. But regen effects are an undeniable part of our toolkit and as has been mentioned time and again it's bizarre that they don't give us a method of leaning into those more. Is CDR a terrible mechanic? No, absolutely not. Boring? Absolutely yes. Sometimes underwhelming? Sure. Unreliable? Maybe if you're not the kind of player who is able to adapt or plan.
The class is, on the whole, stronger in Stormblood if we pretend Lillies/Confessions don't exist at all than it is right now. While I'd love to see a more interesting mechanic in place and brand new toys to play with, this sky is falling rhetoric has to stop. As has been mentioned in here already, the players themselves are the ones creating this PR disaster for the class. We need more constructive feedback and less outright hysteria.(4)Last edited by Tsunenori; 06-07-2017 at 12:38 PM.
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