Thread: Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Originally Posted by javid

you conclusion is invalid. One of the prevailing arugments on this forum is "IF SE IS DEAD SET ON MAKING A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE, why not make it proc off of regens and medica II's?"

And my posted answered that questions with why IT WON'T be on regen/medica II applications. Plainly b/c there are too few of them per fight by comparison to Cures I & II; Also in an early post I demonstrated why it would be even worst if they made it proc off of regen ticks (how abusive it could be and/or completely unoticeable by efficient play-styles). Hence the reason why it has to stay on Cures IF SE IS DEAD SET ON A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE.

Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.

Originally Posted by javid

Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

Originally Posted by Cynfael

Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.



You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

If you're being technical about what it means to be a main and off healer then I have no idea what your meaning of main and off healer means.

But the definition of main healer and off healer is the main healer does most the work and the off healer picks up the slack. Any ratio of healing that isn't 100%/0% or 50%/50% are all compositions of Main healer/Off healer. If you meaning something else about the term Main healer/ Off healer then I'm confused.

Efficiency is the highest output for the lowest "cost", cost being opportunity (GCDs) & resources (cooldowns & mana).

Cure is currently 400 potency, for a single GCD.
Regen is 1050 potency over the course of its duration and the same opportunity cost (it also allows for oGCD skill weaving for EVEN GREATER opportunity efficiency, but we'll ignore that variable).

So regen, for one GCD, provides ~2.5x the potency of Cure for ~1.4x the mana.

Cure spells are for getting a person's health up RIGHT NOW. They're inefficient, but very powerful on a moment to moment basis.
Regen skills are "weak" when looking at a single moment in time, but massively efficient if they are allowed the time to do their jobs.

This is why Medica 2 and Regen are our workhorses, not Cure 1 & 2.

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Efficiency is the highest output for the lowest "cost", cost being opportunity (GCDs) & resources (cooldowns & mana).

Cure is currently 400 potency, for a single GCD.
Regen is 1050 potency over the course of its duration and the same opportunity cost (it also allows for oGCD skill weaving for EVEN GREATER opportunity efficiency, but we'll ignore that variable).

So regen, for one GCD, provides ~2.5x the potency of Cure for ~1.4x the mana.

Cure spells are for getting a person's health up RIGHT NOW. They're inefficient, but very powerful on a moment to moment basis.
Regen skills are "weak" when looking at a single moment in time, but massively efficient if they are allowed the time to do their jobs.

This is why Medica 2 and Regen are our workhorses, not Cure 1 & 2.

This is where I feel the devs used the lowest common denominator when gauging the standard for healing. You'll see Cure/Cure II spam significantly more often in DF whereas the better a player gets, the less reliant they become on Cure when Regen does the bulk of their work. Now this wouldn't normally be an issue, however you don't build an entire mechanic around the baseline. Doing so practically assure that job will get left behind as people gravitate to the ones that better allow for resource management and efficiency. Unfortunately, I have my suspicions White Mage will be the "meme" for the next patch or two. I want to be wrong, but I just can't see them making sweeping changes by even 4.1 let alone within two weeks.

Why Yoshido just don't used the magical "Git Gud" ?

That clearly apply here when I see so much "Main WHM" that don't have any fcking clue about how their job as to be done.

Earthly Star has been brought up several times in this post, I did want to point out that it has a 60s CD so I don't know if it's necessarily the super OP heal people say it is. The potencies could maybe be nerfed a bit, but the CD seems to balance out the high potency. And, again, I do want Balance to be nerfed - partly because it discourages me, I feel, from using other cards because I'm tempted to Redraw for a Balance.

I don't think WHM is going to be as dead as people are insisting (claiming that they could delete the class right now and we'd lose nothing is sheer dramatics, as is claiming nobody will play WHM or take one - it's not like you're going to be unable to clear because you brought a WHM lol). Doesn't mean it can't get some changes. I main AST but I still love WHM.

If White Mage is going to get anything for utility, or a better mechanic, it needs to be unique, not a rehash of what SCH and AST have. A lot of people are asking for a spammable shield for WHM like Adloquium or Nocturnal Field; shields like that should remain with SCH and Noct AST (though Divine Benison should not require Lilies to use). Also, realistically, how often was Stoneskin used during a fight with its long cast time and high MP cost? People are also asking for party damage buffs similar to Balance or Fey Wind (even seen Balance asked to be cross role when cards are a key part of AST's identity). White Mage is a powerful healer with a lot of emergency tools that primarily uses HoTs; anything added should reinforce that.

Lilies/Confession need to have a higher proc chance and Lilies need to do something other than lower the cooldown on those spells. A potency increase on the spells affected would be a nice addition. Confession also needs to either have a longer duration or an additional effect (possibly both). Plenary Indulgence being an AoE heal centered around the people with Confession that heals regardless of if the people nearby have a stack or not would be nice. It could be an interesting way of getting heals to that BLM that insists on standing at max range. I don't think Lilies/Confession proccing off only Cure I/II is bad. You should not just be able to spam Medica to victory, Cure should have a place in your kit. A higher proc chance on Lilies could certainly help needing to "spam" Cure because you're fishing for one. I also think a CD that guarantees a Lily for every cast you make during its duration would be really nice. It seems they want WHM to have access to those tools more often as part of their playstyle (big bomb heals) and I don't necessarily think that's wrong.

As for utility, WHM doesn't necessarily need to bring a flat damage boost to everyone else to have something compelling. I like the idea of an improved Protect, as well as an inverse Cleric Stance (where you can't DPS in exchange for giving someone else greater damage capability). WHM is very capable of solo healing as well as doing crazy healer damage, so I think comps with 1 WHM, allowing for another DPS could be a thing, as well as comps where the WHM just sits there and does DPS. If that becomes the norm then they do not need much in the way of utility.

The final thing is the cross class abilities. It's pretty unfair that they have to use up all the slots to get back what they used to have, but it was also very annoying in the current setup to have to take so many things from WHM. All the healers should have options for what they get. Easy solutions to it:

-Give everyone back their class specific dispel (just adjust the level you get Leeches at) and remove Esuna from cross role;
-Give everyone Protect or some form of it (they seem to not like having the exact same abilities copied across classes with the same name and icon, which is fine I guess, just give them different names or something);
-Get rid of Largesse and give back Divine Seal, Synastry's potency increase, and (I'm assuming) Dissipation's potency increase.

This gives WHM back 3 of their abilities, freeing up space for 3 unique healer cross role abilities.

Originally Posted by Elamys

-Give everyone back their class specific dispel (just adjust the level you get Leeches at) and remove Esuna from cross role;
-Give everyone Protect or some form of it (they seem to not like having the exact same abilities copied across classes with the same name and icon, which is fine I guess, just give them different names or something);
-Get rid of Largesse and give back Divine Seal, Synastry's potency increase, and (I'm assuming) Dissipation's potency increase.

I like every you said up the the cross skill part. It was done this way because it was a waste to have multiple actions that did the same thing. If anything they should just give us more slots to cross 3 additional skills, but at the same time, we don't have to always have the same skills crossed. (Not every fight needs esuna ^_< )

You said mostly everything I was going to say otherwise. I'm still going to make my post to make to better state my ideas though.