Redo the Crafting system.

[Faul]

I feel like one of the major praises of XIV is how well done the crafting system is, and considered one of the best in the MMO industry...?

IMO was earlier... It was fine doing the Main Scenario Quests and Unlock Quests once to have access to every feature of the game. Then came Specialization and Desynth with cap. So really needing 3 different chars (and having to do MSQ and unlocks thrice) in order to have ready access to all crafting content devalued the system a lot for me. The system became more like other common MMOs where you need alts to be able to explore all the crafting content.

[Dzian]

Observation should pretty much be free.

While it could technically be used to proc infinite cp from comfort zone you'd have to take a tell of a lot of turns to get something viable. Like bust out 60 free observes and 6 comfort zones to gain enough cp to do a masters mend. And recover from a low durability screw up or something when you haven't got enough durability to finish.

Or 10 observes to gain enough cp to swap one hasty for a basic or precise touch. Though if you wanted to steady hand them for 100% success. It's take you an hour to complete a single synth

Or just make it free but unable to be used while comfort zone is active

[Silverbane]

Observation should pretty much be free. While it could technically be used to proc infinite cp from comfort zone you'd have to take a tell of a lot of turns to get something viable...

Not really. Each CZ only recovers 14CP. But for the 10 steps under CZ, each has a 9% chance of getting a G/E proc, which you'd use a Tricks of the Trade to convert into 20CP. On average, each CZ+10xObs would recover 32CP, and three would be enough to buy a Master's Mend or Manipulation.

But why even bother with CZ? Whenever you don't have a buff running, just activate your (ToT+Obs)x7 macro and go get a drink. If you don't recover some CP while you're away (there's about a 50/50 chance you will recover at least 20CP), hit the macro again.

And speaking of Manip, it replaces Master's Mend if Obs is free. Just do Manip+3xObs for 88CP (and hope for G/E procs too) instead of the 92CP Master's Mend.

So, conclusion: Observation breaks the system if it's free.

[Gumbercules]

hey least its not 1.0 crafting :P "want to make a shoe? make 12 nails get a sole leather, toe guard heel guard...oh those nails take an ingot a piece for some reason...." "XD Stats? what stats this is a lvl 5 shoe?....oh yeah I said shoe, need to repeat the process if you want a pair....or hack of a leg your choice....." *takes out CRP tool*

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Not really. Each CZ only recovers 14CP. But for the 10 steps under CZ, each has a 9% chance of getting a G/E proc, which you'd use a Tricks of the Trade to convert into 20CP. On average, each CZ+10xObs would recover 32CP, and three would be enough to buy a Master's Mend or Manipulation.

But why even bother with CZ? Whenever you don't have a buff running, just activate your (ToT+Obs)x7 macro and go get a drink. If you don't recover some CP while you're away (there's about a 50/50 chance you will recover at least 20CP), hit the macro again.

And speaking ofManip, it replaces Master's Mend if Obs is free. Just do Manip+3xObs for 88CP (and hope for G/E procs too) instead of the 92CP Master's Mend.

So, conclusion: Observation breaks the system if it's free.

You're right if the CP cost for Observe is too low, then it'll break the game. My previous suggestion of 6 to 7 CP is definitely too low. Even 8 CP that you previously suggested is still too low. So I'd like to suggest the following.

Firstly,

CZ = -66
10 steps of CZ = +80
Net gain = +14

Currently, Observe cost 14 CP each

If no Good proc'ed, 10 steps of Observe = -140
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -140 = -126

If 2 steps proc'ed Good, then 8 steps of Observe and 2 steps of ToT = -112 +20 +20 = -72
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -72 = -58

If 3 steps proc'ed Good, then 7 steps of Observe and 3 steps of ToT = -98 +20 +20 +20 = -38
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -38 = -24

Mini Summary: So at the moment, unless there are 4 Good procs during the 10 steps of CZ, it's always gonna be a deficit on CP spamming Observe.


Now assuming Observe now cost only 11 CP...

If 3 steps proc'ed Good, then 7 steps of Observe and 3 steps of ToT = -77 +20 +20 +20 = -17
Final CP +14 (from CZ net gain) -17 = -3

Mini Summary: As you can see, even if Observe cost only 11 CP, one will still need 4 Good procs during CZ in order to gain any CP.

Conclusion: I think the current cost for Observe can be cut down to 11 CP, and it won't break the game.


Secondly,

I thought about having an addition to the skill: "Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer". This way, one cannot activate CZ, and then test their luck to regain CP via Trick of Trade by spamming Observe (cost 8 CP per step, while CZ replenishes 8 CP per step). However, I think someone would then activate CZ, and then total CP drops below 60, and now he/she can spam Observe... So at the end, I think Dzian's last suggestion could be partially taken... the cheaper version of Observe cannot be allowed while CZ is active. So I think the addition to the skill should be:
"Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer and while Comfort Zone is not active"

This change here would not only benefit end-game crafting, to make Observe a bit more useful towards the end of a rotation for procs, but it will also benefit beginner crafters, and teach them how to utilize procs very early in their career.

[Dzian]

Hat doenst change anything though. The sheer amount of the involved means even at 11 cp observe is useless. There's just to much ring involved..

Also reading a response about observe and tricks of the trade where you could just spam them both. I'd tweak my earlier suggestion and make observe cost increasing cp. First one is free second one is 5cp third one is 10cp or something like that.

That way one you could toss in a free observe when you got strides up for bb so it would be useful but it wouldn't be spammable

[Silverbane]

You're right if the CP cost for Observe is too low, then it'll break the game.
Conclusion: I think the current cost for Observe can be cut down to 11 CP, and it won't break the game.

Agreed. And your analysis assumed 3 G/E proces (3 ToTs) in 10 steps, which is pretty good luck, so even 7 CP would be OK: spamming CZ+Obs+(ToT on G/E) sometimes would be a CP win (if you got 3 or more G/E procs), but the odds of that are poor. At 7CP, 2 ToTs would almost be breakeven, and the odds of getting two procs is about 1%.

So I think the addition to the skill should be:
[B]"Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer and while Comfort Zone is not active"

I think that's an unnecessary complication. At 7CP, with a less than 1% chance of CZ+Obs spam being a CP gain and a large loss if it isn't, Obs isn't game breaking. Even at 6CP, CZ+Obs spam is usually a loss of CP.

[Silverbane]

I'd tweak my earlier suggestion and make observe cost increasing cp. First one is free second one is 5cp third one is 10cp or something like that.

That way one you could toss in a free observe when you got strides up for bb so it would be useful but it wouldn't be spammable

Interesting idea, but might be hard to implement. First one free would make Obs a standard feature of most rotations, as an optional proc-seeking step right before Byregot's Blessing and/or an effective shortening of CZ.

That's maybe too easy. First one costing, say, 4 CP (that you'd have to budget for) and the rest costing say 8CP would be more interesting.

But before we get too complex, have some pity to poor folks who maintain our beloved simulator.

[MN_14]

IMO, the one size fits all crafting design isn’t working well. Gearing and leveling aside, no matter how they rebalance and simplify crafting mechanics, it’s still too complicated for most players who really don’t care about learning the system. The end result is a niche crafting scene that is far too small for the developers pay attention to.

I believe that there really should be tiered difficulty levels in terms of recipes:

1. Quick, easy crafts that don’t require much more effort than a WOW style crafting system. There have to be items to draw in the crowds. With more participants, there will be more reason for the developers to spend time working on more compelling content. I’d recommend easy items that possibly cannot be HQed but should still be somewhat relevant (ie. hypothetical non-meldable i250 gear in 3.4 for instance). These crafts can also incentivize players to level a crafting class, which could lead to an interest in more difficult stuff later.

2. HW style intermediate level master crafts. These are fine for beginner to intermediate level crafters as you would be able to HQ them reliably while following a rotation and making some small optimization adjustments. These would be tailored for the style of crafting that the vast majority of dedicated end game crafters in ARR and HW favor. So it should probably be the standard difficulty for HQable items. Relatively low in difficulty but requiring you to have a small understanding of mechanics and RNG manipulation.

3. Advanced level crafts for crafters who want to master and fully utilize the system. The only crafts seen so far have been the master 2 tokens from ARR and to a lesser extent the level 50 4* crafted materials. These crafts would require a crafter to fully optimize their strategy in the same way that was required to reliably HQ the master 2 tokens. Examples of these crafts could be crafted “ornate” style gear or higher item level raid capable gear, some of which could even be untradeable. As well, recipes could include even more difficult crafted tokens that can be traded for special, unique rewards and glamours.

The major issue with the HW balance is that there is no incentive for anyone to move beyond using a suboptimal rotation unless they want to produce items to sell on the mb rapidly. Crafters are largely stuck inside the box and I’ve noticed a trend of new crafters simply putting up a few items on the mb briefly and then disappearing altogether. There is no compelling content or anything to aim for that can keep them around.

Another issue is that crafting, in general, is downright simplistic when compared to other things like battle mechanics. More complex mechanics can be introduced for advanced level or intermediate level crafts and it would be refreshing to see things like new conditions and effects. The whistle specialist ability did tease us with new conditional effects like the increase in efficiency for certain abilities when the whistle stack is a multiple of 3. This kind of effect is important for single class crafting, but the implementation wasn’t great due to your lack of control over whistle stack changes.

[Driavna]

I think people ignore crafting mainly:

- Consume way to much time, even if you are doing very simple stuff.

- GIL is useless.

- Posible buyers are almost no existent for the majority of crafted goods.

- FXIV crafting system is complex for the sake of being complex but give players 0 options.

- MB is boring and less exciting compared to building your own shop.

- In a theme park MMO crafting is something minor unless revolve around enhance gear from dungeons/raids and consumables.

- You are forced to level everything.