What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[Sebazy]

As I said, the better the party healer is in, the greater is his his DPS window. And likewise, the worse is his party, the smaller is this window. And that can reach near-zero.

I'd be lying if I said that awful parties had no effect on my DPS potential but I think you're overstating things quite significantly. In dungeons, it really doesn't make that big a difference, I've hit 3.8k average DPS in incredible groups that you'll likely never see in a solo queue, and I've hit 3.8k average DPS in slow groups that I've pretty much dragged along by the coat tails, you've seen me link these logs here in this very thread so I'm not really sure how you can say this is as big an issue as you suggest. For raids, I'd honestly say that staying focused is the bigger problem, knee jerk raises can be dangerous if you habitually fire them off at a bad time.

What will make you DPS less is an increased healing requirement because those person's mistakes. They're humans, after all. But when the situation returns to your control, you certainly will DPS as much as you can, right?

See for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAJ9InV3-MI - Log

The MT was in my group, my co healer died 7 times and there were 33 deaths overall. For a comparatively tame and trivial encounter, that fight was utter carnage. I wasn't playing especially great but managed 1.2k dps aka 69 percentile out of that with plenty of room to do better if I had have been more focused.

But that is not about the script itself, but how your party members reacts to it. Can you guarantee that no one will stay on the bad no matter what? That everyone will have enough ping to not get caught by a mechanic

No, but by knowing the timing of the script and being aware of what's happening around me. I can be prepared for when things go wrong and more importantly, I can ensure I react appropriately rather than excessively.

Case in point, in that clip above, look at 2:05. The BLM in slot 7 gets clipped by a plume 2:08 and my co healer dies for the second time, on one side of the coin, I know that I'm the only one that's going to heal them, on the other side of the coin, I know that there's literally nothing coming for another 20 seconds or so. I finish my DPS casts and lazily throw a regen at them. Lo and behold, they are almost topped by the time the next mechanic comes along which they also fail, cry of victory at 2:28. Ironically, the earlier regen has them back up to about 25k hp before the 3rd mechanic comes along which they also fail, trample at 3:35. This time they take a 62k one shot.

Who's the bigger fool here? The player who failed 3 consecutive mechanics or the healer who would have pumped them full of cure IIs and still had a dead blm at the end of it? (And before anyone suggests it, I don't begrudge any of the people who died there, that Chariot was horridly placed leading into a very awkward Cry>Trample combo for anyone who didn't see it coming).

And how about a provoker PLD who don't even hold aggro and all monsters of a wall to wall is attacking everyone that is running for their lives? I know that this situation don't happen so often, but can happen if the provoking PLD is also undergeared.

Oh come on now, this is a bit of a silly statement no? You show me an undergeared tank pulling wall to wall that neither has gear nor can hold agro and I'll show you a party wipe, this is a bit too extreme to be a reasonable example and has zero relevance to this thread.

However, since you asked nicely: The most undergeared tank I've ever experienced, I didn't record a video of this run, but the numbers should tell you all you need to know. He had less HP than me and his DPS was rock bottom due to both his gear being poor and a good portion of what he did have being broken to really round things off. Yes I did have to adjust and go a little easy to ensure I kept him alive and didn't pull everything off him in the process, but even so I still managed 900 DPS which isn't too shabby for a 60/ilvl 240 cap dungeon.

So no, at least as far as casual/mainstream content goes, why would I be less likely to DPS when I can typically just throw a regen and roll my eyes some in the majority of situations? It's all about learning to apply an appropriate amount of healing for the situation at hand rather than dropping everything to bomb them with Cure IIs.

The problem with the ice mage are the DPS checks, like enrage timers. And those trash pulls that lasts a year to die if I don't spam Holy and raises the healing requirements.

But why I must think that the ice mage are a holy entity that can't be ever criticized while the party is hitting enrage even with my DPS contribution?

This is a different discussion altogether no? Ice Mages don't bother me one bit in Rabanastre, they are a minor annoyance in Dungeons (more emphasis on multi dotting coupled with steady pacing on my holys and it's not a problem) and they have no place in anything with an enrage timer. Ps most mainstream content doesn't hit enrage, so I'm not really sure why you're making a point of this? No one here is defending Ice mages that I can see?

If the healer (like that on this log) is solo healing Ultimate Coil, he isn't "allowed" to do under 1K DPS (that is a modest damage)? I can imagine that he put all his effort to keep his party - that was epic - alive AND done as most as DPS as he could.

Modest is a relative term here and it can vary depending on the context. 2K DPS from a healer in a dungeon is 'modest', yet the same damage in a savage raid is very solid. Let's be realistic here, there's nothing modest about an 88.6% active rate on UCoil. 860 DPS whilst also throwing out 9.2k HPS in the by far the most convoluted encounter this game has ever thrown at us? I absolutely concur on the epic verdict

I ever tought that the good healer should cast the right spell for the right situation. And that is valid for DPS spells. Yes, I'm aware that ABC is valid for every caster, healers included. And that mentality calls for flexibility of mindset, not being narrow-minded with this or that idea of how healers must act. If he must stop DPSing to cast heals, so be it. If there aren't ant heals to do, do damage with all of your mighty. Isn't that somewhat a consensus here?

For sure, you've almost certainly seen me preaching from the rafters about being open minded and willing to push the boundaries when they are there for the taking. But knowing how to keep things going and apply measured healing without dropping the ball is just as useful a skill as being able to spot and react to a problem in the first place.

Again, I'll stress these things aren't something that should be expected of everyone, but rather it's a standard of play for people to aspire to, myself included.

[Elamys]

can i just say it sure is ironic that OP began this thread last year begging us not to use it as a place to argue over whether or not healers should or should not DPS and it has, as expected, become exactly that

[Vyriah]

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Really ?
If that's the only thing you have to say, I don't really care. I'm not sure what you are trying to do with that kind of sophistic stunt, outside making sure to anyone that doubted it that this discussion have no meaning whatsoever.

Is it fear? Is it a mentality? Is it just poor play? Laziness? That is what the topic is asking.

I have answered that question multiple times, and there's a even a quote of it two message above yours.

[Cynfael]

can i just say it sure is ironic that OP began this thread last year begging us not to use it as a place to argue over whether or not healers should or should not DPS and it has, as expected, become exactly that

On the other hand, a thread with the title "What are the most common reasons people don't dps?" has absolutely no chance of becoming anything other than a hotbed of healer DPS debate.

Pages, threads, and entire years later, the reason that people push back against the notion of appropriate, helpful healer DPS continues to escape me. Many strawmen have given up their lives in this conflict, but I have yet to see an argument against a reasonable expectation for healer DPS that is predicated on a sound understanding of game mechanics.

It's wishful thinking and obviously my personal opinion, but it would nice if more healers (or at least forum healers) stopped fighting the basic, common sense notion that idle players should find something useful to do and accepted at face value that increasing healer DPS uptime is just another part of skillful play and a goal to aim for. No one is going to track them down in-game and shame them if they aren't pushing max possible DPS in their daily roulette.

Players who complain that they didn't sign up to attack things as a healer don't get a great deal of sympathy from me. A simple review of the ability list strongly suggests that killing monsters is something you do at least part of the time, never mind actual gameplay that reinforces that providing supporting DPS when you can is a plus.

[RopeDrink]

I have answered that question multiple times, and there's a even a quote of it two message above yours.

To clarify - just because there's a lot of question marks doesn't necessarily mean I'm looking for answers. It is a case of setting the tone of the post as opposed to legitimate questioning. Having been in the thread close to its birth, you can rest assured I already know the general consensus (and have done for a long time given I've been advocating DPS in every similar thread). However, I'm also a stickler for reaffirming a topic when discussions get a bit sidetracked, though that is to be expected when it goes in circles.

[Gemina]

...Pages, threads, and entire years later, the reason that people push back against the notion of appropriate, helpful healer DPS continues to escape me...

I agree with 100% of your post, but with this particular part, I can say that I do understand for the push back. It doesn't make it rational, but I understand. Whether it's spite, rebelliousness, lack of confidence, being new, favoring the lore surrounding the role, laziness... there are a myriad of reasons a player rejects the notion of healer DPS. Whatever their reasons, the commonality is they don't feel it is helpful. This feeling can derive from either selfishness or selflessness. Appropriate, helpful healer DPS entails that the healer acknowledges that their DPS during downtime facilitates clears. If they do and they don't contribute, they are either pressured/intimidated (deem clear > DPS contribution), or burdened (would rather be carried).

Ultimately, the goal is the clear. A healer who contributes to DPS while performing their main role indisputably contributes more towards said clear. However, the other indisputable truth is the healer who does not add DPS to the pool does not prevent the clear from happening. If their DPS contributions at this point result in a clear where it otherwise would have not, the healer has just carried, or saved the instance. I am confident in saying that DPSing healers have several of these saves under their belt, which is all the more the do it when playing this role if you truly care about getting clears.

[era1Ne]

I believe that DPS roles have it the hardest overall in endgame. This is not to say that one group migjt be particularly hard on it's tanks or healers but rather that the number one sin in Savage/EX is not contributing the best DPS you can while peforming mechanics. If as a healer you cant hit 2k but are sitting at 1.5 there are very few groups who would be opposed to taking you assuming you are still proficent with the healing side of your kit.

Gordias and maybe midas was the last time dd got really harsh dmg checks and had a lot of pressure. Those times are gone and currently even someone like me, who doesn't main dd for years now can clear savage as an dd. Don't get me wrong, the pressure is much higher than in "normal or casual" content, but overall, i think every role has to deal with about the same pressure. Of course comparing them is difficult, because every role has different challenges and how high the pressure is, depends on the fight and also what you are currently doing.

The pressure to do dmg as an healer in early prog with an ilvl lower than expected by the developers or especially speedkills is absolutely there. Imo and i talked with others about it in the past, in speedkills optimising as healer is slightly harder than with the other roles imo. Thats not to say, that other roles have it easy. Speedkilling is never easy, but as an healer you have to plan out everything (mitgation of every member, healing, ...) and some strats involve failing mechanics to gain more uptime for the dd as an example. Those attacks can really hurt and put extra responsibility and pressure on the healers.

There is no safety net as a dps. If you're 25% behind the expected DPS for your job people will expect you to shape up or ship out in general.

This really depends on the static, because the game doesn't put extrem pressure on the dd itself.

While I understand the viewpoint, I'd suggest that the notion of DPS having "one job" vs. healer's "two jobs" isn't a very accurate or helpful one. The comparison suggests that healer is somehow twice as difficult and twice as complex as the DPS role, and I don't think that's necessarily true at all.

Some players do find healing inordinately stressful for one reason or another, but many also find that playing DPS in content with more complex mechanics, phase transitions, and DPS checks is just as stressful if not more so. Simply doing damage is not in itself an entire job; it's common to all three roles. It's true that DPS focus on damage as a priority, but not only do they still have to deal with encounter mechanics, their job mechanics in relation to damage-dealing are generally significantly more complex with more timers, resources, and combos to keep track of.

Well, i was just about to write something, but you basically summarized it. Those roles are just different and imo it really depends for instance on the person, whats harder for them.

In short, if you're not comfortable chasing 60-80% logs then simply don't. Either GTFO that SCH slot for starters or at least find a WHM that wants to push DPS and start pairing up with them instead. Having a main+off healer isn't the most efficient way forward, but in a casual or even midcore group that's just focusing on clears and farms, who cares? Mine didn't.

If you're expecting to get a static that is good enough to clear their progression in a week but isn't interested in numbers then I'm afraid you that you need to either sort your expectations out or 'get gud'.

Getting an A4S clear with my casual team was 2 months of graft, to see that as 2 months worth of screw ups is borderline insulting. Rather, I'd argue that was one of the most enjoyable progression pushes I've ever had in this game and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

Amazing post. In my opinion there is a static for everyone, but you have to search for them. If someone is demanding of the dd very good numbers and can't play his tank/heal role properly, then the person will get criticism for it. After all nobody should demand others performing better than she/he does herself/himself. Don't expect anyone to carry you in a static and have a good mindset (want to improve, teamplay > your performance, ...) towards raiding. Simple as that.

[Taika]

Minimum effort players exists in all roles. Tanks, healers and DPS, likewise. But do you demand a Ice Mage to at least use fire spells as well? Do you demand provoker paladins to use their complete hate rotation? Do you demand your co-bard to play songs? Do you demand your RDM to use weaponskills as well? Do you demand your loldrg to be cautious about when he uses elusive jump? Or you're demanding just with healers? God saves me from healing at the same group as you.

...

EDIT: Notice that I am not speaking that low-effort healers shouldn't be putting some effort. What I'm saying is "stop with that war against healers or let's demand maximum effort for everyone. Pick one".

What is being asked for is, as already pointed out by others, minimum effort, nothing more. Minimum effort in practice means "trying to do something useful instead of choosing to do nothing at all". When I tried to only heal and not use any DPS skills in Xelphatol, I was only active for 17% of the whole dungeon (while everyone else in the party was above 70%). All that time I was doing /idlecam and /mandervilledance, I could have been doing something to help my party (= DPS, since no additional healing was required). That's what's being asked here, and the bar isn't very high.

And yes, if I see a BLM spamming Blizzard II, a tank going afk after gaining enmity (my friend in fact experienced this a month ago or so...), or a BRD who doesn't use their songs, or any party member of any job who spends most of their time standing still and doing nothing, of course I will (nicely and politely) ask them to step up! If this makes me a party member you or someone else wouldn't want to group with, well, that's not really my loss. I do usually play healer in DF content though (other than leveling stuff).

[Miste]

Really ?
I'm not sure what you are trying to do with that kind of sophistic stunt, outside making sure to anyone that doubted it that this discussion have no meaning whatsoever.

What sophistic stunt? I did nothing of the sort. All I did was explain why I feel you aren't understanding me and I am not understanding you. When you last replied you just repeated things I said just in different words. So you aren't really discussing what I said....which means your replies get confusing.

I mean I can explain it from my point of view point by point.

You said "How have you improved the game with these threads?" (This question cannot be answered by us because we can only post, SE is the only one able to take action which may or may not happen for any topic on these forums not only healer stuff)

You then also say these posts and threads about healer dps are pointless.

I said that we don't have the power to force improvements to the game. The only influence we can have on the game is using the forums to make suggestions, and discuss things so that is what we do. All we can do is post..it is out of our control if SE ever listens or not.

You say it is pointless to have these discussions on the forums, but then also in the same breath say that the forums can have a positive influence on the game.

That's the reason why I said we post because it can possibly influence the game and the players. The only power we have is to post and make suggestions and discuss and you agree the forums can influence the game, yet you are trying to tell us it is pointless to discuss on the forums about healer dps.

You are contradicting yourself so it is confusing me.

If the discussion has no meaning then why are you here? It must have some meaning to you otherwise you wouldn't waste your time here.

[Vyriah]

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It's hard to tell if you're saying that in a good faith, especially after involving "language barrier", to be honest.

I'm not saying that discussion is pointless because antagonizing everyone is just gonna have to opposite effect of what you want. I have already talked about how commen and how easily healers tend to get them just for playing healer will just pick a side and camp their positions. And they will even be more much more adamant on continue their playstyle. Look all the lenght I have to go just to say something that isn't even against healer DPS.
You're the one that was telling me my approach would lead nowhere actually. Even though player feedback was encouraged early into SB. That's even the reason I checked the forum to begin with and it's exactly why I'm here talking about positive re-inforcement and such. DPS got that, why do healers still have those scattered spells kit ?