What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[MoroMurasaki]

How so ?
What I find sad is saying some one that would come into the this forum and say "I beat NeoExdeath but i'm a bad healer". How in the world ? That's an achievement, be proud of it. And there's still even more room for improvement after that. That's all good things, no drawback, why would someone even be agonizing over want to improve ? That's absurd, that's exactly what the game is about.
Overperforming is litterally just bonus, something you do because you can. That's what is great about it, you don't need it to do it but you still do it because you want to do it. And at some point because you can do it. How's that sad ? That's the best part of learning anything.

I've seen the thread you're referring to with this post and I think you're genuinely missing the point.

The desire to improve is never sad, in fact I'd say it's admirable. If the healer in question is looking to progress into Ultimate and their Neo clears don't match up with the numbers put out by healers who are completing ultimate then, by the standards they've set for themselves, they need to improve.

Let's be clear, there is a baseline in casual content for healers that is ridiculously low. If you keep the group alive you're rather likely to recieve a comm whether you dps or not. I started playing this game with my boyfriend and I have more than 5 times the number of commendations he does, I'd attribute that largely to the fact that I have leveled 3 healers to 70 and he's leveled WHM to like 31.

The court of public opinion isn't relavent here. We are asking why would you not contribute dps as a healer when we all know you have the time and MP to do so?

Throughout all these threads on the subject that I've seen in my time on this forum I have never seen a valid answer to that question. If you can put one up by all means do so, I'll quote it in my signature, but I just don't see it happening.

The healer that posted the thread you're talking about has my respect right off the bat because she wants to do better. That's the baseline we should all be looking at, casual or elite. Improvment.

[Vyriah]

You're the second person to say that and the tenth person to put that "you're missing the point" kind of approche to my post.

And I don't think I'm missing the point. Toxic was mentionned, FFlogs was also mentionned as a gate keeping tool. The only gatekeeper at Ultimate is Twintania, or you iether defeat it or not. This is most "no bullshit allowed" in the whole game no matter what you think the game should. If you unlocked it, you allowed to try it.
And that's an achievement, it's ridiculous to be called bad at that point.

Also, I've written lot of things that are left uncontested for now.
Main idea is persons in general always take the simple way. Healing was balanced arround it mana cost, then player stop use it if they find it cost too much and that's it. But they don't have the idea of downtime or performance. Yeah I know, the hall of novice says something about that, but the cotton gear sprout healer in Sastasha tells another story.
So that's the main point : they don't know about healer DPS for the most part. They don't if it's good, they don't know some one expect them to do that, they just know that used Medica 2 at some point and bast jumped and them just after. And most likely, they never, ever encoutered someone that told they should do otherwise. Because if you think you get too frequently matched with underperforming players, it's even more likely they'll get matched together. Wich means it would be the norm, while you beind frustrated at lack of DPS in your runs would just look like some random angry person that happen some times.
They're not even parsing, they wouldn't even understand what makes that run fast and that one slow.

And that's why I talking about design and thing like that. Because that's how you make this crowd actually move the way you want by making it the obvious simple way.
It's the same when you want to get higher DPS : what's the obvious simple way to do more damage in the same time frame ? Doing more actions. And that's why everyone here talk about uptime.
Because it's the obvious simple way.

I hope there's no limit to signature on this forum, I really can't do without digressions.

[MoroMurasaki]

You've managed to make a bunch of ubsubstantiated claims that read more like an opinion piece on why standards in multiplayer games are bad than anything remotely akin to an answer to my question.

Why shouldn't a healer dps when they have the time and mp to do so?

There are virtually no MP limitations at high-level casual content. I've raised 25+ times in Rabanastre while dpsing as a WHM and didn't run into MP issues. There are certain times throughout the leveling process that dpsing too hard could get you into trouble, particularly when you first get Holy as a WHM, but overall there is no real MP constraints healers face if they have even a modicum of skill. This excludes extreme circumstances of horrible parties of course, I'm not advocating for a healer to dps when it would be detrimental to their group. This is about helping.

In terms of time constraints... Let's be real, virtually none exist anywhere in casual content. To have a constraint on your time you would need a high enough CPM to be hitting that kind of cap and heal-only healers are virtually never there. If they are it's an egregious amount of overheal.

How about you try to answer the question that is being asked instead of creating a new question to answer?

[Cynfael]

How so ?
What I find sad is saying some one that would come into the this forum and say "I beat NeoExdeath but i'm a bad healer". How in the world ? That's an achievement, be proud of it. And there's still even more room for improvement after that. That's all good things, no drawback, why would someone even be agonizing over want to improve ? That's absurd, that's exactly what the game is about.

Overperforming is litterally just bonus, something you do because you can. That's what is great about it, you don't need it to do it but you still do it because you want to do it. And at some point because you can do it. How's that sad ? That's the best part of learning anything.

None of that is particularly close to what I said. I don’t understand how your points are supposed to follow from mine.

[Vyriah]

None of that is particularly close to what I said. I don’t understand how your points are supposed to follow from mine.

Then you are "missing the point", I guess.

Snip

When did I talk about it being bad ?
Seems you also missed the point. Taking the short way is overall a good thing, that's way everyone does it. and it doesn't especially talk about online game in particular, it apply most things that require a though process. That's how you do mental math, take one complex calcul into a lot of simpler ones. If you talk about how every plays a video game without taking this into account, you're ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room.

And I can answer your question : There is no reason.
But the subject was never about why they shouldn't, but why they wouldn't. Your question is biaised, no surprise why you want to make me answering it "the point" of the subject you've not created and that isn't titled by your question.

Also there's MP management at high level content. I'm note sur what you're even tlaking about when saying that. WHM MP management is curretly strong but it doesn't change the way the game is made. Once again, watch the no clip documentary about how ARR was made. It's in it. It's no my opinion, it comes from Yoshida's mouth. Healing in this game is balanced through MP starvation, they're balanced through a cost vs potency idea. That what every balance about SCH changed, costs and potency.
There's absolutly nothing to contest about that.

You simply can't contest the idea the healer DPS could be related to the existence of a parse.
You simply can't contest the idea thatplayer don't do healer DPS because they don't know about it before being unwilling to do it.
You simply can't contest that secondary ressource based burst healing would naturally create more uptime accros the board.
You simply can't contest encouraging healer DPS through gameplay designed positive reinforcement would create more healer willing to DPS that just saying that they should for any reason possible, even the best ones.

But if you can, I'm here and waiting. Most of post so far are starting to revolve more about me than the content of my post, or any "gameplay related matters".
Because obvious simple way : if you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You simply can't contest the idea the healer DPS could be related to the existence of a parse.
You simply can't contest the idea thatplayer don't do healer DPS because they don't know about it before being unwilling to do it.
You simply can't contest that secondary ressource based burst healing would naturally create more uptime accros the board.
You simply can't contest encouraging healer DPS through gameplay designed positive reinforcement would create more healer willing to DPS that just saying that they should for any reason possible, even the best ones.

I'll just play your little game

Exactly how are parsers bad? Invokes toxicity? It also hides away laziness and creates obscurity. And how would players know how to improve without the existence of parsers?
And why wouldn't they find out otherwise from, oh I don't know, perhaps thinking about it? Or maybe consult mentors? And I believe it has been mentioned before that hardly anyone bats an eye in easier content, such as four-player dungeons. But once you step into harder content such as savage, you're no longer a new player and thus you should be knowing what you're doing.
And how is this a bad thing?
Is there gameplay designed to discourage healers to contribute in damage less?

[Vyriah]

Exactly how are parsers bad? Invokes toxicity? It also hides away laziness and creates obscurity. And how would players know how to improve without the existence of parsers?

Never said they were bad. I actually said in another thread they were good tools to improve.
Also, when SB lunched I started rainding in PU, without parse. I killed O1S week 1 and O2S week 2. No guide about SCH were up I started playing 3.4, so I was still a newby. My first kill on O2S was a 1k8 DPS, wich was a 89% perf at that time. You can improve in the game by understanding how the game works.
That's also the kind of reason I'm here talking about gameplay issue. I already said I have attention trouble (wich you can confirm it by all those missing words, missplaced letters and half finished sentences) and not an excellent excecution, but I'm not too bad at understanding how things work. Or maybe 89% is not enough effort for you.

Toxicity is another matter, and have more pertinence in the subject of why certain player don't want to heal. Bad experiences make them on the defensive. If you don't take this into account, anything you'll make is gonna worsen the situation, especially is use namecalling and sarcasm.

And why wouldn't they find out otherwise from, oh I don't know, perhaps thinking about it? Or maybe consult mentors?

They can, some do. They're always someone to find things like that. It's not about how it impossible, it's about how it's not (always) happening.
Also mentors are from the player pool like everyone else, they can also not consider healer DPS at all. Or not speak about it during random dungeon.
And my first intervention were about the fact that accusation fo healer DPS were exagerated, so I'm just following your observation, not mind. I mostly found healer that did DPS in dungeon the last days while leveling my BRD.

If you think it's a contradiction, just add player who simply don't care to the picture. Or those that won't bother saying it in a dungeon.

And I believe it has been mentioned before that hardly anyone bats an eye in easier content, such as four-player dungeons. But once you step into harder content such as savage, you're no longer a new player and thus you should be knowing what you're doing.
And how is this a bad thing?

Wich I also answered.
If you talk about harder content, is natural that fewer players are gonna be good at it. Uptime is a thing but some struggle wiht mechanics. I did that 1k8 on O2S that landed me a place in a static, but I also did 500 DPS and changed class on my first Shinryu clear. Because low attention, not because of netflix.
And again, that's a good thing. the game is about beating the boss, it would pointless if any would clear it without trouble.

The player struggling in the content are playing the content. Already said that before too.
Also still uncontested.

Is there gameplay designed to discourage healers to contribute in damage less?

No, not at all. You can do it. Lot of people do it. I do it.
But there's nothing that encourage doing so a lot of people aren't gonna assume that's something the could do. What most people must think is that it's doesn't bring anything to the table while being attentive to what happens is a good thing. They're not chilling, they're waiting for things to happen because they think that's how healing work. And as they don't get called on it and certainly recieve commend doing that, they continue.

But you're not contesting anything here, most of what you're saying are question, and mostly about thing I didn't write in those four single sentences.
It still holds.

[MoroMurasaki]

Then you are "missing the point", I guess

Where have I made an attempt to discredit you? Ill be quite frank, I don't think you're the problem here. I feel no need to discredit you because beyond your rudeness and aversion to grammar I have no issue with you but rather I take issue with your stance on the same thing we've been talking about for 30+ pages and countless other threads.


There is no defense for a healer who isn't dpsing. There is no situation in this game where a healer can't contribute some dps to the encounter. The expectation is to tailor your amount of dps to your skill level, party composition and the fight you're in.

I am not asking for a fresh 70 AST in an incompetent party to keep up with the dps output of an experienced raiding WHM in a static. Different classes, skill levels and enviroments. What I am saying is that it is the responsibility of both of those players to contribute whatever damage they're able to.

I am soooooooo sick and tired of you guys quoting Yoshida as evidence of anything. I can quote the Hall of the Novice, cite the behavior of the AI healer in squadron missions and even point at the theme of the whole first few CNJ quests (you know things actually in the game instead of some random documentary of the making of the base game from literally years ago) and you guys act like none of those things have any relavence but think obscure old quotes from Yoshida are gospel.

Your lack of applied logic is astounding. Speaking with you has been nothing short of exhausting because of how little sense you make. I am done responding to you, at this point it feels like a waste of time.

[Vyriah]

(you know things actually in the game instead of some random documentary of the making of the base game from literally years ago)

It was made just before SB, so it's more recent than CNJ quests.

Sorry for my poor gramar, english is not my mother langage. But I guess you get a bit of what it felt for those that got hammered with those endless "argument" and not less rude comments. And I'm just one person in the end, imagine what kind of "exhausting" experience that would have been of 4 or 5 person had been doing what I did.

The reaction you just had here is exactly how "those bad lazy healer" feel after you tried to "convice" them they are right. How likely are you to consider all I've written so far ? That's why some players don't want to DPS as healer. You got your answer now.

[Cynfael]

The reaction you just had here is exactly how "those bad lazy healer" feel after you tried to "convice" them they are right. How likely are you to consider all I've written so far ? That's why some players don't want to DPS as healer. You got your answer now.

Your English is quite good, but I do wonder if some of your objections come from a place of missing the nuance of the ongoing discussion.

There is a somewhat subtle yet significant difference between complaining at bad players and critiquing poor gameplay. I get the feeling that you are often conflating the two, which would help explain why I and others have called you out on missing the point on more than one occasion.