How Would You Do... Summoner?

[Shurrikhan]

Don't worry it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at him...

Either way...

These are the Two Magical Based DPS classes... they are balanced against each other as DPS classes... if you make changes to one you have to look them as a pair. Because each one has their nich as a Magical DPS job. Change that and you affect the overall balance between the two. The same way you have to guage the Melee DPS jobs. They are balanced against each other... as are the Ranged DPS jobs.

So any changes you make to one of them... have to be looked at in terms of their role as a Magical DPS class.

I went through how they compare and compliment each other in their Nich... if you don't think those things through, you'll end up breaking one or both of them.

Right now, as of Heavensward 3.0 the balance points between the two are perfect in terms of Jobs each has its nich.

I'm not sure it warrants a dissertation, so I'll just say this: the MMO market in general has been attempting to move away from niche play—significantly varying outputs between classes wherein specific composition becomes essential or outright forced—in favor of similar outputs with varying styles, pace, or feel to their gameplay—such that classes feel different even without having to force a specific composition for each given fight. Needless to say, even then the variation given diminishes due to the .3% or so greater combined output of x combination when competing for best possible clear times, but at least it prevents classes from being entirely locked out of certain fights at the hardcore, midcore, or casual levels of progression, in ascending severity, as you'd see with intentionally niched design. Were SE to classify and distinguish the two casters as you're suggesting, there would be no choice in casters, or possibly even DPS, for certain fights. Summoners would be banned from the majority, save fights like A2S, while Black Mages would either be taken en masse or still skipped entirely because of their mobility issues in favor of a pure physical comp.

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

[Silverquick]

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

[Shurrikhan]

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its pre-ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken.

3. While I never claimed to know the job balance masterfully, I'm well aware of its play and output percentiles due to published statistics, and have at least played both casters across Savage content. I believe that amounts to more than your pre-60 experience. You seem to be again favoring percentile of play over hours of play. While yours may exceed mine on Summoner in Heavensward, I feel confident that I have more hours on Summoner across it and ARR, and many more hours on casters across HW alone. I'm not sure, therefore, why you assume that any player with multiple or all 60s is somehow less familiar with the caster balance situation than you. I would gladly defer to any successful dual-caster main who raids successfully, as my time played is more mixed, but it does not seem objectively reasonable to assume that you are correct when you haven't leveled yours yet, nor have ever played any of the caster role's competitors.

4. I did, however, say (elsewhere) that any change I'd make to Summoner would be to increase its versatility and general viability.

I'll admit that I should try to write more simply as not to be misunderstood, but I have to wonder if my explanations are really so poor? There seems to be little to no connection between the content of your replies and the content you are quoting.

[Silverquick]

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken..

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

You can't throw a stone in this game without hitting a SMN.... its an incredibly popular, powerful, and viable class now...

"Less Desirable"... that would be the ARR version of it. People bolted that job like crazy.... they came BACK to it and loved it in HW. I have yet to hear anyone but the most delusional people wanting to go backwards. The people who actually play this very popular job, love it.

Pssst... dude, seriously... FFXI and FFXIV are two different games... what worked in one, does not work in the other. They are two different games you can't stretch to fit... the SMN was a failure in ARR and all but abandoned...

The Changes in HW... suddenly brought players back to the class and job and its thriving now where few wanted it before.

[Shurrikhan]

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

The word I used was "more" (broadly desirable), the opposite of "less". I said "less dependent" (on burst phases). It's in the quote you're replying to. I have to wonder why you are continuing to reply if you have no interest in reading what others have written.

Please, please remember who you are speaking to; even if you dislike what "the other side" has to say, that side does not become a conglomerate hive mind. Just because I, too, may disagree with you or find interest in something you dislike does not grant me the memories of all who have done the same. I have never once mentioned FFXI here or in any other SMN thread. I never so much as had an FFXI account.

[Silverquick]

Please, please remember who you are speaking to; even if you dislike what "the other side" has to say, that side does not become a conglomerate hive mind. Just because I, too, may disagree with you or find interest in something you dislike does not grant me the memories of all who have done the same. I have never once mentioned FFXI here or in any other SMN thread. I never so much as had an FFXI account.

Well it wouldn't surprise me... if you did.

You are under the impression this job even NEEDS an "improvement" other than the normal progression the job is already on. Its already been done... by moving in the opposite direction.

I am looking at a guide right now written by one of those SMNs who was there... and brings up just how they balanced the job is now and how bad it really was to play back then, and how much better it is today vs it was more of a pet oriented job.

On top of that I can directly say those AoEs are critical to the jobs placement and nich in this game. It has a serious role, one that doesn't conflict with the BLM either, but rather harmonizes with it.

And on top of that doesn't conflict with its Support Class side which is known as the Scholar so even those portions are well divided and well balanced.

Yet in your previous arguments you were more than willing to toss all that out like it was nothing.

[Allyrion]

Well it wouldn't surprise me... if you did.

You are under the impression this job even NEEDS an "improvement" other than the normal progression the job is already on. Its already been done... by moving in the opposite direction.

I am looking at a guide right now written by one of those SMNs who was there... and brings up just how they balanced the job is now and how bad it really was to play back then, and how much better it is today vs it was more of a pet oriented job.

On top of that I can directly say those AoEs are critical to the jobs placement and nich in this game. It has a serious role, one that doesn't conflict with the BLM either, but rather harmonizes with it.

And on top of that doesn't conflict with its Support Class side which is known as the Scholar so even those portions are well divided and well balanced.

Yet in your previous arguments you were more than willing to toss all that out like it was nothing.

Just to start, I want to say I'm generally on the same side as you on this issue. I like the current SMN and I think the additions in HW was the perfect direction for it (for me anyway). I never wanted an emphasis on pet micromanagement, and I don't think FF summons have ever been about that anyway (minus 11).

But I think you're mistaken on how SMN was before. It was never that focused on the pet. People complaining now about that, they complained back then too. The 60 rotation only filled out the down time of the 60 one and added an aoe (Tri-disaster being more of a QoL change). The downtime being waiting for aetherflow after using up all your stacks.

Any min-maxing the pet back then should be done now too. It was only focused on back then because SMN had less to do and the pet's damage was a bigger percent of our overall damage since our rotation has less skills. But the bare-bones pet management system now wasn't any more involved at 50.

And though SMN sucked in Final Coil, why is that the only thing people remember? During the First and Second, SMN was the best single target ranged dps. A good SMN could compete with a MNK in terms of raw dps while they also brought more utility like a battle rez (while not being the healer).

This also brings up the next point. I wouldn't hold a ton of weight in SMN as an aoe class being an important niche. Precisely because BLM was once king of all AoE for so long, no one would believe it is the way it is now. SMN being great at single target meant that indeed the casters were balanced like that before but since it was flipped, I don't think it's something to hold on to.

Some jobs will always have better AoE but being an AOE class is not a thing. Luckily, SMN's single target is still good and doesn't suffer for it.

Lastly, let's be real about popularity. SMN went from the least flashy class to what might be the most flashy. That, I firmly believe, accounts for most of the rise in popularity. Viability doesn't always lead to popularity. MNK was the least popular in most of ARR while being the highest dps.

The other reason is a lot of BLM's switched because people like AoE and they went to the new king of AoE. Those same people will switch again if SMN's AoE isn't better than BLM or RDM after the scaling, new skills and general damage adjustments at 70. There's really no guarantees it will be.
(Did I mention MNK went from laughable-just-give-up AoE to the best melee AoE job with one skill going into 60. Do not trust SE to let you keep your niche.)




The only thing I would like with SMN is for the egi's to show up with some of the abilities. It could even just be the new skills, rather than redoing the old ones. No pet management, just more visuals to show mastery over the egi's.

I wouldn't like the Egi to look too much like the originals just because of the lore. It's already a little handwavey how they justified SMN while making the primals inherently destructive presences (not just to our enemies). If they actually looked like mini-versions, it would be too much imo.

My ideal SMN would not be dot based. It would be a pure nuking class. It would not have even have pet though it might have skills to summon an uncontrollable ones temporarily (though the current pet isn't horrible). All of its skills would have a visual that includes the Egi appearing to do the damage. Similar to the Wildfire animation where you see the machine appear next to the mob and it blows fire one it.

None of that will happen but that's what I would do. The development of Dreadwyrm is a fine path too and I would keep that with mine as well. I think SMN has only improved since ARR.