How Would You Do... Summoner?

[magnanimousCynic]

No offense but why do you keep bringing up BLM in this thread solely focused on SMN? We're suggesting what we'd like to see in SMN, from small changes (larger Egi's or adding primal-like graphics to abilities) to more drastic ones, like making the Egi's a bigger focus of the Job or having our skills give short buffs to them.

We're not game designers here, I doubt we could "fix" SMN without making it overpowered or melt our computers. We're just throwing out ideas and seeing if they sound good. We're not purposely trying to destroy the balance between SMN and BLM, we just want SMN to feel like the Controller of Primals people imagined it to be.

[Silverquick]

No offense but why do you keep bringing up BLM in this thread solely focused on SMN? We're suggesting what we'd like to see in SMN, from small changes (larger Egi's or adding primal-like graphics to abilities) to more drastic ones, like making the Egi's a bigger focus of the Job or having our skills give short buffs to them.

Don't worry it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at him...

Either way...

These are the Two Magical Based DPS classes... they are balanced against each other as DPS classes... if you make changes to one you have to look them as a pair. Because each one has their nich as a Magical DPS job. Change that and you affect the overall balance between the two. The same way you have to guage the Melee DPS jobs. They are balanced against each other... as are the Ranged DPS jobs.

So any changes you make to one of them... have to be looked at in terms of their role as a Magical DPS class.

I went through how they compare and compliment each other in their Nich... if you don't think those things through, you'll end up breaking one or both of them.

Right now, as of Heavensward 3.0 the balance points between the two are perfect in terms of Jobs each has its nich.

[Shurrikhan]

Don't worry it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at him...

Either way...

These are the Two Magical Based DPS classes... they are balanced against each other as DPS classes... if you make changes to one you have to look them as a pair. Because each one has their nich as a Magical DPS job. Change that and you affect the overall balance between the two. The same way you have to guage the Melee DPS jobs. They are balanced against each other... as are the Ranged DPS jobs.

So any changes you make to one of them... have to be looked at in terms of their role as a Magical DPS class.

I went through how they compare and compliment each other in their Nich... if you don't think those things through, you'll end up breaking one or both of them.

Right now, as of Heavensward 3.0 the balance points between the two are perfect in terms of Jobs each has its nich.

I'm not sure it warrants a dissertation, so I'll just say this: the MMO market in general has been attempting to move away from niche play—significantly varying outputs between classes wherein specific composition becomes essential or outright forced—in favor of similar outputs with varying styles, pace, or feel to their gameplay—such that classes feel different even without having to force a specific composition for each given fight. Needless to say, even then the variation given diminishes due to the .3% or so greater combined output of x combination when competing for best possible clear times, but at least it prevents classes from being entirely locked out of certain fights at the hardcore, midcore, or casual levels of progression, in ascending severity, as you'd see with intentionally niched design. Were SE to classify and distinguish the two casters as you're suggesting, there would be no choice in casters, or possibly even DPS, for certain fights. Summoners would be banned from the majority, save fights like A2S, while Black Mages would either be taken en masse or still skipped entirely because of their mobility issues in favor of a pure physical comp.

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

[Silverquick]

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

[Shurrikhan]

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its pre-ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken.

3. While I never claimed to know the job balance masterfully, I'm well aware of its play and output percentiles due to published statistics, and have at least played both casters across Savage content. I believe that amounts to more than your pre-60 experience. You seem to be again favoring percentile of play over hours of play. While yours may exceed mine on Summoner in Heavensward, I feel confident that I have more hours on Summoner across it and ARR, and many more hours on casters across HW alone. I'm not sure, therefore, why you assume that any player with multiple or all 60s is somehow less familiar with the caster balance situation than you. I would gladly defer to any successful dual-caster main who raids successfully, as my time played is more mixed, but it does not seem objectively reasonable to assume that you are correct when you haven't leveled yours yet, nor have ever played any of the caster role's competitors.

4. I did, however, say (elsewhere) that any change I'd make to Summoner would be to increase its versatility and general viability.

I'll admit that I should try to write more simply as not to be misunderstood, but I have to wonder if my explanations are really so poor? There seems to be little to no connection between the content of your replies and the content you are quoting.

[Silverquick]

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken..

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

You can't throw a stone in this game without hitting a SMN.... its an incredibly popular, powerful, and viable class now...

"Less Desirable"... that would be the ARR version of it. People bolted that job like crazy.... they came BACK to it and loved it in HW. I have yet to hear anyone but the most delusional people wanting to go backwards. The people who actually play this very popular job, love it.

Pssst... dude, seriously... FFXI and FFXIV are two different games... what worked in one, does not work in the other. They are two different games you can't stretch to fit... the SMN was a failure in ARR and all but abandoned...

The Changes in HW... suddenly brought players back to the class and job and its thriving now where few wanted it before.

[Shurrikhan]

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

The word I used was "more" (broadly desirable), the opposite of "less". I said "less dependent" (on burst phases). It's in the quote you're replying to. I have to wonder why you are continuing to reply if you have no interest in reading what others have written.

Please, please remember who you are speaking to; even if you dislike what "the other side" has to say, that side does not become a conglomerate hive mind. Just because I, too, may disagree with you or find interest in something you dislike does not grant me the memories of all who have done the same. I have never once mentioned FFXI here or in any other SMN thread. I never so much as had an FFXI account.