How Would You Do... Summoner?

[Silverquick]

Well that one would definitely require a complete ground up rework of the class... and for that matter a complete rework of the pet interface.

Another thing those that don't actually play the job don't know are the kinks in the Pet interface. There is a major delay due to queueing of the pet attacks that creates enormous delays in the response time between the time you issue the pet a command, and they actually obey.

Example: Trying to get Garuda to do Contagion can take upwards of 3-10 seconds at times if he's busy.

The second bug... or should I say deficiency... Enkindle itself. As above... there will be a delay in the time it takes the Enkindle to actually be performed with the pet. SO.. when you kick in Enkindle on say Garuda, and the target dies before he does Aerial Blast.... the attack never happens and your button goes into Cool Down anyway... so you lose your Enkindle for the next 3 minutes. One of those little tricks you learn as a SMN it so only use it on the target with the most HP or you might just lose it.

So the pet interface as a whole would need to be rebuilt. I suspect this is yet another reason why they've given up on pet classes as a whole. It would be a massive undertaking... and if they don't do that FIRST... then they just screw up the whole class by making everything pet centric.

------

But you might get some Egi Glamors.

Those wouldn't hose up the Job or create class balance issues either.

[Nerisu]

Or they could just add a Bahamut-egi animation near our characters when we perform Deathflare to at least give us an illusion that we are summoning it and it's the one performing the attack. You know, like NIN's new frog summon jutsu.

And just like Silver said, pet commands are very clunky. Just imagine missing the trance window just because the "Bahamut-egi" decides it's auto-attack is more important than Deathflare. It's a good concept, though, but not viable because of how the game's pet system works.

[Jandor]

Well that one would definitely require a complete ground up rework of the class... and for that matter a complete rework of the pet interface.

Another thing those that don't actually play the job don't know are the kinks in the Pet interface. There is a major delay due to queueing of the pet attacks that creates enormous delays in the response time between the time you issue the pet a command, and they actually obey.

Example: Trying to get Garuda to do Contagion can take upwards of 3-10 seconds at times if he's busy.

I play the job mate, I know the pet interface can be clunky. It should be fixed regardless of what other changes are or are not made to SMN.
"Don't make these changes because a significant part of the job doesn't function properly as it is." What sort of reasoning is that?

Or they could just add a Bahamut-egi animation near our characters when we perform Deathflare to at least give us an illusion that we are summoning it and it's the one performing the attack. You know, like NIN's new frog summon jutsu.

That would be nice, and more than acceptable. This is a 'how would you do it' thread, so I went for what I want rather than what might potentially happen.

[Silverquick]

"Don't make these changes because a significant part of the job doesn't function properly as it is." What sort of reasoning is that?

The smart kind....

....where you don't end up hosing the Job up with good intentions... because you didn't think things through.

[Shurrikhan]

"Don't make these changes because a significant part of the job doesn't function properly as it is." What sort of reasoning is that?

The smart kind....

....where you don't end up hosing the Job up with good intentions... because you didn't think things through.

OP here,

Not trying to appear authoritarian or anything, but just to clarify, let me restate the premise for the thread: if you were to have made the Summoner, e.g. before there was a ever an implementation of the XIV 2.0 Summoner, or revised it for 3.0, how would you have done it?

Clunky systems are definitely a concern worth mentioning, but their existence does not preclude later mechanics built upon them, so long as it's feasible that those systems could still be revised.

I'm still working on my own example, which has unfortunately bloated into multiple pages worth of documentation... I'll finish it up and then try to trim it down, or at least break it into several sections of hide-able text.

:: To clarify further for you, Silver:

it is a creative venture thread, not one aimed specifically at pragmatics. Nor am I sealing off input from every person who does not consider themselves a SMN "main". Please do not harass other for using the thread as intended, even if you feel that they have been shortsighted or have skipped crucial details; these things can be a team effort... And in the end, the job doesn't belong to its mains, though I do agree that it should largely favor their opinions as those already invested. But, you have 4 other threads in your recent post history in which to continue letting the world know that you ARE a Summoner MAIN. I'm trying to get us to look at the systems that can best aid attraction to others who have put off the job (often due to these exact issues) with the least cost of attractiveness to those already invested, as in your post #20.

:: This thread is not "the enemy". It does not intend to replace your current implementation of Summoner; rather, it's using the comparison between what was made and what might have been to gather insights into design generally, for instance, that using persistent AI units (e.g. Summoner pets) who must check whether they are in fact summoned, their position, the mob's position, their spell cooldown, and then recheck every instance of position and relative position as they chase a mob because there's no predictive movement nor any elastic or otherwise extended ability range to cover for issue, is probably a bad idea, and that while pet swapping might sound thematically interesting, spending 6 seconds to do so for little to no advantage is not. From these targets we could then move towards actual solutions for either the mechanical systems or ability/spell arsenals of something like Summoner to make it more effective, more deeply interesting, and more broadly attractive.

[Silverquick]

OP here,

Not trying to appear authoritarian or anything, but just to clarify, let me restate the premise for the thread: if you were to have made the Summoner, e.g. before there was a ever an implementation of the XIV 2.0 Summoner, or revised it for 3.0, how would you have done it?

Clunky systems are definitely a concern worth mentioning, but their existence does not preclude later mechanics built upon them, so long as it's feasible that those systems could still be revised.

I'm still working on my own example, which has unfortunately bloated into multiple pages worth of documentation... I'll finish it up and then try to trim it down, or at least break it into several sections of hide-able text.

Cool...

But I am also here as someone who actually plays the job... and Mains it.

Here to bring to you and everyone else here... the reality of playing an actual Summoner, and including class balance lessons with our other sister jobs, and a direct focus on what the Arcanist > Summoner/Scholar actually is and their roles.

Along with all the other realities you need to think about.

[Jandor]

If I'd have made SMN I'd have made pet actions take less than 3-10s to activate.

[Jerbob]

I will settle for nothing less than a complete rewrite.

1. Preserving existing Summoner as Arcanist

Summoner as it stands is an alright job really. Lots of people like it, and with good reason. There's no reason to get rid of the work that's been done on the job.

Part of the solution is to create an Arcanist job stone and just merge the entirety of the current Summoner into Arcanist. A few model swaps for the Egi/Carbuncles (to, for example, those elemental sprites) and a rewording of the cutscenes and tooltips - the visual components can be reused almost entirely, at least from 1-50 - and it's done. The trance mechanic can be rebranded as some sort of "super-Ruin", accelerating natural decay to frightening levels.

Scholar can have the same treatment. Lore-wise, this can be seen as a split in Arcanima traditions, or something of that nature. One branch of Arcanists study disease, the other healing. There's a side benefit that SCH and [New ACN/Old SMN] aren't glued together any longer.

The Summoner name is now free to be used for something new, and the players who quite rightly want to preserve their favourite gameplay can do so as Arcanists.

2. Focus as a pet job

A lot of people really hate the idea of a pet job - apparently including the developers. I really like pets, and seeing as this thread is "How would you do", I'm going to run with it anyway!

I don't want to get into a massive debate in this post about why I think the pet job model is appropriate for Summoner. If people want to question the decision later, though, I'm happy to discuss separately.

Current Summoner is a "job with a pet", like MCH, not a "pet job". The distinction is important, I think. As a Summoner in XIV I don't feel like I'm summoning anything - all I'm doing is rotting something (ruin), infecting something (DoTs), and drawing in ambient aether from a powerful source to blow stuff up like Conjurers do (Trance). I want my summoning to be at the very core of what I'm doing, and to do that 95% of my damage needs to come from something I've summoned. No-one wants 5 minute cutscenes involving dragons flying in from outer space, so a pet is a good alternative.

3. Mechanical considerations

People often mention that a pet-focused job can be broken because it can ignore mechanics, the pet is expendable, and so on. I agree that this is an issue, but I don't think it is insurmountable.

Egis are currently fairly sturdy - AoEs tend not to damage them excessively, and moving the pet around can keep them safe when it's necessary. Sustain and AoE healing spells from healers do the rest. But what if it wasn't enough?

I'd like Summoners to actively have to maintain their pets. If pets are less sturdy, they require more management and focus, and thus potentially more skill to control effectively. Having to move one's pet unnecessarily results in a damage loss, as does having to resummon it, etc etc. If the player does things right then the pet should be something that can be maintained indefinitely with a little TLC, but the pet certainly shouldn't be something that can just be summoned and forgotten about.

If Summoner's pet supporting actions require cast times and the like, then they are not at an advantage compared to other casting jobs. In order for their pet to operate effectively, the Summoner needs to remain stationary at certain times.

There'd also have to be a revamp of the existing pet mechanics - currently they are unresponsive, slow, and prone to just plain not working. This needs to be fixed regardless of a Summoner overhaul. It's just not good enough.

4. Fix the lore

I want to make my feelings about lore really clear - SE controls every bit of it. If they say we can't summon Primals because of lore, that's just a thinly-veiled way of them saying they don't want us to summon Primals "just because". Yes, of course there is a massive amount of intertia in the story that supports this. I wouldn't seek to change it - it's fundamental, and good stuff generally. But when it's being used to justify jobs not being developed properly, it ceases to be valuable.

Think about Egis. SE starts with the "you can't safely summon Primals because X" line. The Egi clause is a "but" - "You can't safely summon Primals BUT you can transmute their essence and summon that." SE decide where the loopholes are, and they decide what form they take. There is no reason that Summoners have to summon Egis, or indeed anything remotely resembling them.

I do think that summoning Primals in any form is stupid for a level 1 Summoner. There needs to be a build up. There are lots of entities in the XIV universe that are powerful and miscellaneously magical, many of which are former summons from previous incarnations of Final Fantasy - is there any reason we can't negotiate/defeat/bind those and summon part of their essence instead?

Carbuncle, Fenrir, Siren and the like all exist in some form in this game. Interestingly, most are the "weaker" or "lower level" summons from previous games. So I propose that our Summoners summon those instead - at least to start with. Once they start to reach higher levels, Primal-type summoning can become a feature.

5. What are the pets like?

Because Summoners are putting all their eggs into one basket - the pet - each one needs to be designed as carefully as any other job's most important actions.

A common problem raised about pets in XIV is that there isn't scope to add much variety. The hyper-restrictive and unimaginative job system, and lack of the elemental wheel, are equally to blame for this, and I'm not sure I have a solution that ticks all the boxes SE likes to have ticked. However, I'm strongly of the opinion that these restrictions need to be pushed, not pandered to.

We also need to make sure that pets have a very different "feel" but don't have insurmountable advantages over one another - Contagion, obviously, is the shining example. Summoners should be encouraged to swap their pets for different types of battle - not every 30 seconds, which would be tiresome and trivialise the uniqueness of the pets, but certainly for different bosses or different types of solo tasks.

I think a case can easily be made for a single-target focused pet and an AoE-focused pet. Having the former as melee-oriented and the latter as backline-oriented makes sense too. I also like the idea of having a "passive support" style pet that is both a caster and a supporter - dealing damage by enhancing one's enemies is a favourite trope of mine, and many Summoners and summons in the FF series have done just that. I'm sure it doesn't appeal to everyone, but options are nice to have.

Seeing as this is a "How Would You Do" thread, I'm also keen to include something a lot of people won't approve of - a hybrid casting/healing pet. I'm a big fan of doing things "the wrong way" with friends - "all mage" dungeon runs, playing the classes without job stones and seeing what they can do, etc etc. Doing things differently, "just because". It's of niche appeal and certainly not for everyone, especially the more intense players, but having a healing option for Summoner would make me very happy. It doesn't even have to be good compared to our dedicated healers - indeed, it shouldn't be, as we do not want to see Summoners replacing real healers - but having it there would be really fun for at least some people. Or perhaps just me, I don't know.

I'm sure people here are more imaginative than me. There are more options. Even if the pets are filling the same general role - killing stuff - having them do it in a distinct and fun way beyond just having different animations is enough for people to have their favourites. It all adds character to the job.

Naturally, as the Summoner has very few / no direct damage abilities itself, the pet needs to step up and fill this role entirely. I don't like the "spam Ruin" playstyle, so I'd be eager to have multiple abilities per pet with slightly longer recast times - abilities you are encouraged to mix and match appropriately for the best effect. Not necessarily something so routine as 1-2-3 combos, but even those are better than "spam Ruin". Beyond the pet's basic auto-attack, nothing should execute automatically - interacting with the pet is the core of the job, after all.

6. How should it look?

Visually, for the pets, I think it's essential to go down the Carbuncle route of decent-looking pets rather than the Egi "is it made of sack cloth and string" route. It's a common complaint made by those who dislike the existing Summoner. I have absolutely no attachment to my floating rock or my weird skeleton bird - they're nothing. Make them interesting to look at - I want a Fenrir pet to look like a canine, not a floating tail with ears. I want Siren to look like a feathery woman bird thing, not a harp with eyes. They don't have to be so huge as to blot out the sun either, as people seem to fear!

For the Summoner itself, the visual aspects should really emphasise the connection between the pet and the Summoner. I don't want pet abilities that are executed silently - everything the pet does should be reflected by an animation for the Summoner. Arcane gestures and the like. Things like the existing Rouse are nice - the Summoner clearly isn't doing anything directly, but the pet visually receives a benefit.

7. Primals?

They've got to be in there. A Summoner without Ifrit? Ramuh? Impossible!

I understand SE's desire that Primals be something spectacular, and thus all the stifling lore. I don't think this means we aren't able to include them, though.

Existing Summoner has the Trance mechanic. Something similar would work for New Summoner. Building resources, accumulating stacks of something, and in the end it culimates in the summoning of a Primal Avatar for a few seconds. It'd be suitably epic, and keep Primals in their place as something special. It'd also be the easiest summoning method to lorespain away as "safe". Primals should also feature in the Summoner Limit Break for obvious reasons.

8. Job specifications

Based on the above, I suppose what I want boils down to this:

• Fold the current Summoner into Arcanist, make Arcanist a fully fledged job, and detach SCH completely.
• The Summoner name is released for a new purpose. Nothing from the original Arcanist!Summoner need influence the new design.
• Pet as the focus - direct damage actions kept to a minimum, preferably none.
• Summoners must actively support their pets, both for durability/healing/shielding and damage bonuses. Casting times here maintain balance.
• Start off Summoners with non-Primal summonable entities.
• A variety of pets that are both different in focus/role, and different in how they work.
• Pet damaging abilities not just a clone of "spam Ruin", and that need to be actively used, not automated.
• Pets that don't look like I peeled them off the bottom of my shoe.
• Summoner has animations when activating pet abilities.
• Primals can feature later, summoned briefly and powerfully, with lore tweeked in some way to make the summoning safe.

I think this is a firm foundation for a job concept!

As for specific actions, potencies, MP costs... the specifics are kind of unimportant, really. As might be obvious, I've written up my own version of this concept that includes all those sorts of details, but... given the Summoner we have now, I think it's the general idea of something different that is important, not anything more detailed.

As usual, apologies for excessive wall of text.