How Would You Do... Summoner?

[magnanimousCynic]

No offense but why do you keep bringing up BLM in this thread solely focused on SMN? We're suggesting what we'd like to see in SMN, from small changes (larger Egi's or adding primal-like graphics to abilities) to more drastic ones, like making the Egi's a bigger focus of the Job or having our skills give short buffs to them.

We're not game designers here, I doubt we could "fix" SMN without making it overpowered or melt our computers. We're just throwing out ideas and seeing if they sound good. We're not purposely trying to destroy the balance between SMN and BLM, we just want SMN to feel like the Controller of Primals people imagined it to be.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

I will try to keep my responses brief for digestibility.

1. I said I hadn't played BLM often enough immediately before or after a SMN at the same ilvl to compare their metrics as well as I'd like before attempting to pinpoint their points of balance. I never said I had few hours on Summoner, which to me is what matters a hell of a lot more than whether some sense of job "loyalty" prevents me from playing anything else seriously. When raiding, I tend to play what class seems to suit the fight, or the tier as a whole, best given my surrounding member's composition. I'm a fill. That said, I suppose I will have to trust my experience on a BLM, regardless of allowing my SMN to slip ahead in ilvl, a bit more than I trust that of yours with a BLM at 57, even as clearly insightful as you must be to have determined that raid design's movement requirements have made BLM inviable without having stepped foot in a single HW raid on said BLM.

2. I don't see how you can go out of your way to poke holes in BLM's design over its dependence on turret-time and then say that niche differences can be forgiven due to the two caster classes' skillsets "complimenting" each other. To me at least, the caster role in general is known to have superior AoE skills, and this has been the case throughout XIV's history. However, I don't see why the Summoner and Black Mage should need be diversified by whether or not they're "battlefield control" mage or a "one-on-one" mage. Differences in the timings by which AoE or ST damage is output seems plentiful variation; enough to make the jobs feel different without forcing either into an isolated niche. Your proposed "harmony" suggests a consistent double-caster composition, but this is rarely the case; more often, casters are forgone outright at high levels of play in HW unless their LB is specifically required. Were your classification of AoE and ST mage truly the case, one would be taken only to certain fights, and then further fade from the majority of those fights, too, as soon as the rest of the party could meet the AoE requirements with the single-target mage alone, allowing the other caster to better aid their clear times between add burn phases. Because not every fight has equally weighed inclusion of AoE phases by which the mass-attack mage can play his part to make way for the rest consistently, this cannot be stable nor inclusive design.

3. I've not forgotten that BLM is highly dependent on consistent, immobile uptime. I've mentioned as much multiple times in the post you're quoting. Since you proposed that SMN's greater access to mobility was a point of concern to any attempt to balance the job, I suggested three approaches: increased turret-time dependence for SMN, increased mobility (as per your earlier suggestion) on BLM, and increased potential output from SMN's current immobile casting in exchange for reduced burst AoE potential (thereby reducing the gap in maximum ST output--currently slightly BLM dominant, and by-event or burst AoE output--SMN dominant).

Now you said SOOO much that I probably missed a few things. because the window you type in is tiny... and you made a mountain of a paragraph.
So if I missed something just bring it up again.

If you feel the need to respond to a part of a given post before you've had the time to read or digest all that's been said, but still feel like you need to suggest the context of the whole post, I'd recommend duplicating the tab, replying in one, and having the original in the other. You can split the screen to a half or so each or, if on Windows, alt-tab between browsers if you've split one off, or ctrl-tab between tabs if left on the same browser.

[Duelle]

Yeah that's why Pets or any new pets are a bad idea and won't work either.

Summoner is a DPS job in this game. There's a reason only ONE summon ever gets used while the others are little more than benchwarmers.

The problem with this is that the devs gave one pet a notable DPS increase via Contagion. If they had made Contagion a SMN ability from the start, you wouldn't be having this issue much. Regardless of other changes or modifications to the job, removing Contagion from Garuda is a given.

Going back to my earlier point, lack of variety in gameplay is largely to blame. As I said, we don't have enemies with skills that need to be interrupted because if you don't the tank dies. We don't have adds that need to be controlled by multiple people in the raid to prevent the raid taking too much damage. We don't have air phases where ranged DPS can shine. The entirety of combat in this game is focused on telegraphs and memorizing American football plays.

In every one of those scenarios, SMN pets would have a purpose in the event a raid group brings a SMN. Boss has an air phase that prevents melee from hitting it? Pull out Garuda to do her thing. Your raid is short an interrupt for a boss fight? Pull out Leviathan and join the interrupt rotation. Boss fight has powerful adds that need to be CCd and your raid is short one DPS with reliable CC? Bring out Shiva. Boss fight has an add phase with lots of adds that need to die quickly? Bring out Ramuh and have him AoE stuff to death.

-------------------------

I get why Garuda was given Contagion; they wanted to go for a pet benefiting the master, but there are other approaches. Passive personal/group buffs would be one way (having X egi active for Y seconds enhances some aspect of your performance). Slightly affecting certain abilities on your action bars would be another (X ability gets a slight boost when Y egi is active).

Another thing those that don't actually play the job don't know are the kinks in the Pet interface. There is a major delay due to queueing of the pet attacks that creates enormous delays in the response time between the time you issue the pet a command, and they actually obey.

Contrary to what you think, people are indeed aware of delays in input. If you play a PLD or WHM, you see that every time you push Benediction or Hallowed Ground. It's no surprise that pets suffer from that problem as well, and that needs to be addressed as a whole.

Limiting class variety due to not wanting to arse yourself to fix the issues with the battle system is not an excuse.

One is stronger on one side, the other is stronger in the other. This is their balance point and how they are balanced against each other in the grand scheme of things. Remove that AoE damage from the SMN and you only gimp him. so now he has substandard AoE and no niche where he filled it perfectly before. and still allowed the BLM to flourish in his niche.

You're a) assuming that BLM would not be seeing changes in any form (unlikely), and b) banking too much on niches.

Niches in overall design don't matter because classes live or die via a combination of output and utility. Niches needlessly force classes into subcategories for the sake of being different, when the gameplay is what sets one apart from the next. Put into tank terms, I don't give a shit if Mystic Knight enters the game as a tank that can mitigate damage as well as my PLD can or has as many defensive cooldowns; what I care about is how different the gameplay is between the two while generating the same results (hence why Yoshida's "WAR should deal more DPS than the other tanks" logic is complete bullocks).

Same logic applies to DPS, though I personally make room for minor advantages where appropriate. Of course, minor advantages like better AoE are worthless if you're not putting those aspects of a class to use in combat. Going back to my earlier point, if you're giving a class an advantage in AoE, you better be including boss fights that put that AoE to use.

[Silverquick]

No offense but why do you keep bringing up BLM in this thread solely focused on SMN? We're suggesting what we'd like to see in SMN, from small changes (larger Egi's or adding primal-like graphics to abilities) to more drastic ones, like making the Egi's a bigger focus of the Job or having our skills give short buffs to them.

Don't worry it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at him...

Either way...

These are the Two Magical Based DPS classes... they are balanced against each other as DPS classes... if you make changes to one you have to look them as a pair. Because each one has their nich as a Magical DPS job. Change that and you affect the overall balance between the two. The same way you have to guage the Melee DPS jobs. They are balanced against each other... as are the Ranged DPS jobs.

So any changes you make to one of them... have to be looked at in terms of their role as a Magical DPS class.

I went through how they compare and compliment each other in their Nich... if you don't think those things through, you'll end up breaking one or both of them.

Right now, as of Heavensward 3.0 the balance points between the two are perfect in terms of Jobs each has its nich.

[Dyvid]

Should of, could of, would have here but SE should have made individual limit burst that summon a flashy primal for each job.

[Shurrikhan]

Don't worry it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at him...

Either way...

These are the Two Magical Based DPS classes... they are balanced against each other as DPS classes... if you make changes to one you have to look them as a pair. Because each one has their nich as a Magical DPS job. Change that and you affect the overall balance between the two. The same way you have to guage the Melee DPS jobs. They are balanced against each other... as are the Ranged DPS jobs.

So any changes you make to one of them... have to be looked at in terms of their role as a Magical DPS class.

I went through how they compare and compliment each other in their Nich... if you don't think those things through, you'll end up breaking one or both of them.

Right now, as of Heavensward 3.0 the balance points between the two are perfect in terms of Jobs each has its nich.

I'm not sure it warrants a dissertation, so I'll just say this: the MMO market in general has been attempting to move away from niche play—significantly varying outputs between classes wherein specific composition becomes essential or outright forced—in favor of similar outputs with varying styles, pace, or feel to their gameplay—such that classes feel different even without having to force a specific composition for each given fight. Needless to say, even then the variation given diminishes due to the .3% or so greater combined output of x combination when competing for best possible clear times, but at least it prevents classes from being entirely locked out of certain fights at the hardcore, midcore, or casual levels of progression, in ascending severity, as you'd see with intentionally niched design. Were SE to classify and distinguish the two casters as you're suggesting, there would be no choice in casters, or possibly even DPS, for certain fights. Summoners would be banned from the majority, save fights like A2S, while Black Mages would either be taken en masse or still skipped entirely because of their mobility issues in favor of a pure physical comp.

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

[Silverquick]

3.0 specifically tried to undo niche gameplay; this was their specific rationale to nerfing Holy and Flare (player disappointment when the two central AoE classes weren't present for a would-be speedrun because they were so damn strong). As usual with SE's implementation, or indeed any MMO's, they may have overshot the target when considering the sheer amount of AoE they've given Summoner. But the stated intention were balance, and not some oxymoronic balance of niches (which cannot exist so long as a party is able to change composition at any given time, because the fight-wide disadvantages of a given class can always be bypassed by replacing said class), but by attempting to better level output.

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

[Shurrikhan]

Ok sooo... in other words........ you're saying Gimp the SMN AoE so I can selfishly make it into a useless pet class... without really understanding the current job, balance, play or nich... and basically reduce the job to its pre-ARR gimped workings.... so everyone bolts the class again for BLM...

Screw everyone else who actually plays the job for real... I WANT MY DAMN PET CLASS!!!

Got it...

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken.

3. While I never claimed to know the job balance masterfully, I'm well aware of its play and output percentiles due to published statistics, and have at least played both casters across Savage content. I believe that amounts to more than your pre-60 experience. You seem to be again favoring percentile of play over hours of play. While yours may exceed mine on Summoner in Heavensward, I feel confident that I have more hours on Summoner across it and ARR, and many more hours on casters across HW alone. I'm not sure, therefore, why you assume that any player with multiple or all 60s is somehow less familiar with the caster balance situation than you. I would gladly defer to any successful dual-caster main who raids successfully, as my time played is more mixed, but it does not seem objectively reasonable to assume that you are correct when you haven't leveled yours yet, nor have ever played any of the caster role's competitors.

4. I did, however, say (elsewhere) that any change I'd make to Summoner would be to increase its versatility and general viability.

I'll admit that I should try to write more simply as not to be misunderstood, but I have to wonder if my explanations are really so poor? There seems to be little to no connection between the content of your replies and the content you are quoting.

[Silverquick]

1. I never said I wanted a "pet class". I asked only that if pets be included, which could be highly useful, that they be used well.

2. I never said to gimp SMN AoE as a matter of course. I suggested an approach to an issue you suggested, by which SMN may be made more desirable by being less dependent on AoE burst points in a given fight to be taken..

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

You can't throw a stone in this game without hitting a SMN.... its an incredibly popular, powerful, and viable class now...

"Less Desirable"... that would be the ARR version of it. People bolted that job like crazy.... they came BACK to it and loved it in HW. I have yet to hear anyone but the most delusional people wanting to go backwards. The people who actually play this very popular job, love it.

Pssst... dude, seriously... FFXI and FFXIV are two different games... what worked in one, does not work in the other. They are two different games you can't stretch to fit... the SMN was a failure in ARR and all but abandoned...

The Changes in HW... suddenly brought players back to the class and job and its thriving now where few wanted it before.

[Shurrikhan]

Dude... what do you mean "less desirable"... in your own little world maybe... but not in reality...

The word I used was "more" (broadly desirable), the opposite of "less". I said "less dependent" (on burst phases). It's in the quote you're replying to. I have to wonder why you are continuing to reply if you have no interest in reading what others have written.

Please, please remember who you are speaking to; even if you dislike what "the other side" has to say, that side does not become a conglomerate hive mind. Just because I, too, may disagree with you or find interest in something you dislike does not grant me the memories of all who have done the same. I have never once mentioned FFXI here or in any other SMN thread. I never so much as had an FFXI account.