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  1. #61
    Player
    Natsuno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    425
    Character
    Tsubasa Katsuragi
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    I like summoner as is, but this tread got me thinking on how to move it away from it's arcanist or "necromancer" feel. I have a couple of ideas.

    The first would be to flat out replace the base spells one at a time via job quests, either as part of an expansion or retroactively. For example, Bio could be morphed into an Ifrit flavoured spell when we learn Titan-egi, miasma would become a Titan themed spell when we get his egi, and a wind based spell could replace Bio II upon getting Garuda-egi.

    Tri-disaster would therefore be a tri-elemental/primal attack instead. Miasma II could be changed into a Ramuh style EMP if there is a part of his territory that isn't infused with bahamut aether (I'm thinking just inside ala mhigo, maybe), because HW SMN lore (how far does Bahamut's aether reach across the world anyway?) :/.

    The second would be learning different stances or aspects like the Astrogogian Sects. Our base spells would be infused with <insert primal> aether, possibly changing their name/appearance/effect/secondary effect into moves themed after the primal whose aether we are currently aspected to.

    The new moves that replace the old wouldn't necessarily have to be DoTs either, they could be direct damage spells that interact with each other in a different way, or have CDs.

    I don't pretend to know if it is doable currently from a programming perspective, but if WoW can make Immolate turn into Corruption or Doom based on you spec, or Arcane Shot become Sidewinder via a talent choice, then it should be doable.

    Just to reiterate, I am fine with summoner as is, these are just a couple of random ideas I thought I'd share.
    (0)
    Last edited by Natsuno; 05-16-2017 at 08:54 PM.

  2. #62
    Player
    AugustinesShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    11
    Character
    Augustine Czerani
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverquick View Post
    More baseless assertions.
    We all get it. You have your opinion and you don't care about the facts, or that you're arguing against something I'm not even proposing to start with, but I can't help but roll my eyes when you claim that I'm the one disregarding everyone else's opinion when you're the one perpetrating that indignity. That's a textbook case of projection. At this point it's clear you're a selfish child, completely incapable of reading or of comprehension thereby, and you only care about yourself.

    Congratulations, you've made yourself wholly irrelevant. No one wants to engage with someone who has no capacity for interpersonal interaction except maybe a special education teacher who has a heart big enough to pity you in spite of your handicaps (and is getting paid a living wage for doing so).

    That certainly doesn't count me.
    (1)

  3. #63
    Player
    AugustinesShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    11
    Character
    Augustine Czerani
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 60
    The best course at this point in my opinion remains that it would the most workable to separate the necromancer/warlock class from the Summoner job title. It doesn't even necessarily have to be called a Necromancer or Warlock. Arcanist certainly doesn't have a precursor in FF lore, so you could conceivably come up with a whole new name - something like "Spirit-Eater" or "Soul Gatherer" or some variation on that theme.

    Revamping the existing class isn't feasible or sensible, and you'll obviously have people like Silver who will certainly and reasonably object to it being irrevocably destroyed and replaced.

    I am not sold on the idea that the new Summoner should be a pet class at all. In lore it was more of a mage, just with a spell-effect generated via the Summon. There's no reason it should have to be a Black Mage clone either. If anything I would like to see it using stances/combos corresponding to the primals (the how's and what's are open to debate).
    (0)

  4. #64
    Player
    Silverquick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    893
    Character
    Silverquick Fox
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by AugustinesShadow View Post
    The best course at this point in my opinion remains that it would the most workable to separate the necromancer/warlock class from the Summoner job title. It doesn't even necessarily have to be called a Necromancer or Warlock. Arcanist certainly doesn't have a precursor in FF lore, so you could conceivably come up with a whole new name - something like "Spirit-Eater" or "Soul Gatherer" or some variation on that theme..
    Says the person who mains WHM....
    (0)

  5. #65
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverquick View Post
    Then I actually went through all the trouble to get the Summons and wow what a PoS it was. It was hell working the thing up from scratch when you didn't even have any of your own spells other than what you sub, and even getting it to middle levels you literally had to sub WHM to even get a group.

    Sure it looked cool on the surface, but wow actually playing it really sucked badly. It was anything but powerful or a Summoner.
    The thing is that XI's SMN was balanced around the shit ton of utility it offered. That job could: AoE Blink. AoE Stoneskin. Had heals built in. Could remove status ailments. Deal some damage (they did make you wait until you got the lv70 Blood Pacts, which was a bad move IMO). Became super damage mode every 2 hours. Had access to pretty much every element. Could stun. I'm sure I'm forgetting some more, and all of it without taking subjobs into account.

    Not to say they were justified in how that came out in-game, but XI's SMN had a lot of things that would make it really powerful if not kept under control. XI adding Alexander as a summon basically proved this because groups started bringing SMNs for Perfect Defense in order to cheese bosses (only for the devs to then add some bosses that required Perfect Defense, which made SMN mandatory).

    Looking back on the design, XI's SMN would have worked better in a MOBA or "action" MMO like Guild Wars 2. Have each summon serve a "stance" with a slew of abilities with individual cooldowns granted to you depending on what you have summoned. XI's SMN was basically just that but with Blood Pact timers acting as a limiting factor.

    -------------------------------------

    On the topic, there's some things the OP is not taking into account. First, Summoners in prior games largely relied on a secondary school of magic. Rydia had black magic to fall back on. Garnet, Eiko, and Yuna had white magic. Our SMN having DoTs is not much of a stretch if we keep that in mind. Especially since in-world classes and jobs don't share spells like in other FF games. This isn't like XI where there was a school of Black Magic that BLM, RDM, SCH, and DRK could all draw from.

    Not to mention that even Necromancer depictions vary. Sure, some are disease-oriented, but others are focused on things like hexes/curses and undead minions with a lot of master/pet connections (the caster having spells to heal their pets, strengthen them, sacrifice them for damage, sacrifice them for power, etc).
    (2)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  6. #66
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,867
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    On the topic, there's some things the OP is not taking into account. First, Summoners in prior games largely relied on a secondary school of magic. Rydia had black magic to fall back on. Garnet, Eiko, and Yuna had white magic.
    I wonder if they even considered that approach before forcing Tanaka's classes into submission/obsoletion. Had each job been an advanced skill path discovered through related skills or magics, and synergizing with them, you could have ended up with Lancer-Paladins (Cecil), Marauder Paladins (that Vault boss?), Conjurer Paladins (Clerics) and so forth... Summoner, especially, would seem a good candidate to comes from any of three schools of magic, either through manipulation of aetherial entropy, underlying essence or spirit of the elements, or through a sort of calculated conversion or transference of magics—regardless of their aligned element, through Thaumaturgy, Conjury, and Arcanistry, respectively

    Such wouldn't have been as simple or efficient, and therefore less feasible in the pinch 1.18 was in, but certainly worth some wondering over what might have been.
    (1)

  7. #67
    Player
    Silverquick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    893
    Character
    Silverquick Fox
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    The thing is that XI's SMN was balanced around the shit ton of utility it offered. That job could: AoE Blink. AoE Stoneskin.
    Its true in FFXI there were actual support classes...

    In this game though that's the SCH side so, its pretty worthless on a SMN since we have to queue as a DPS. And the SCH does have a lot of those abilities, and none of them help a DPS class at all.

    But since there's no elemental wheel, its kinda pointless to add pets too. Glamors are about the extent of what can be done with them in this game, since the numbers are the only thing that matters for a DPS job really.

    About the only thing worth adding at this point to the SMN is Aetherflow stacks and more of the classic style FF type summons, the way they did Deathflare (Aka Bahamut Teraflare)... other than of course higher level versions of Ruin, Painflare, Fester, etc.

    Which is really why the only people outside SMNs that MAIN the job, that can really give an accurate view, are other DPS jobs who understand what basis for the job really is.

    Otherwise they'll just screw it up and land us back in the shoes the SMN was in ARR where it was a job no one wanted to play and was just for show. We don't queue as a Support job like SCH.... we queue as a DPS and have to perform like one.
    (0)

  8. #68
    Player
    RokkuEkkusu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    732
    Character
    Mikeru Takeuchi
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverquick View Post
    Says the person who mains WHM....
    What does this quote have to do with what the topic at hand? If you saw Augustine's lodestone profie, he uses Summoner as well.

    A person can main more than one job. I main several roles on two of my characters.
    (5)
    My Current Characters:
    Mikeru Takeuchi: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/14812205/
    Ekkusu Volnutt: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/8909941/
    Rokku Sigma: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/5714962/

    "Break a warrior's body, and he will thirst for vengeance. Break his spirit, and he will clamor for peace. Judge my methods distasteful if you will - but know that I seek to end this conflict, not prolong it." - Yadovv Gah, Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn

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