Necromancer Identity Crisis

[Jerbob]

[Stuff about XI's SMN]

I can't help but get incredibly frustrated when I read stories like this. It seems to be commonplace that people complain about XI's SMN when they have very little personal experience of the job itself. There was a lot that was wrong with it, true, but as people have pointed out in this thread, the theory was sound - the developers at the time just had no idea how a pet job should function.

Furthermore, XI's SMN today is actually much improved - and the formula hasn't changed. It's still there and it's still going strong using the same principles. I was playing SMN yesterday, and two people were playing SMN at my linkshell event this evening. If either of them cast a healing spell from their subjob, I didn't see it.

I'd just like people who repeat what they've heard about XI's SMN "being a healer" or "being weak" or "just curing" to actually think about what they're saying and look at some more up-to-date material, is all. Wings of the Goddess was 10 years ago, after all, and a lot of the complaints are being made in the context of gameplay that's even earlier. Kiting bombs with Carbuncle was literally a decade ago.

Using XI's SMN as “proof” for why a different Summoner in XIV is impossible is flawed logic at best, and deliberately unhelpful at worst.

On the topic of Necromancer, I agree with much that's been said by the OP and those supporting them. XIV's SMN is fine mechanically and where all the numbers are concerned, but it's deeply disappointing as a job that holds the Summoner name. DoT-based jobs are fine - and fun! - but it's certainly not what I expect when the Summoner name is involved.

Certainly it shouldn't be removed or reworked, as a lot of people like it - and with good reason. But I do think it should be renamed. That way the people who enjoy the current gameplay can look forward to more of the same, without some of the playerbase asking for something the current SMN enthusiasts don't want. And there's even potential for a different Summoner to appear in the future. Everyone wins!

Most incarnations of Summoners haven't been pet jobs, but I really do think it's the best way to go when looking at an MMO. No-one wants 2 minute long cutscenes for summoning and I don't think people just want a clone of BLM, so having that pet proxy is a good way to solve both of those issues. Make it look decent, make it the focal point of the job's damage, drastically improve pet management functions, etc etc. There's no reason it couldn't work in XIV aside from stubbornness from the developers and the idea that every job in XIV has to be a "reimagining" of the classic – a poisonous idea that vehemently disagree with.

A lot of people like the trance mechanic, but I really don't share an appreciation for it - I can only see the cop-out that the developers have made in order to make Summoner "fit in" with their ideal homogeneous jobs system, and not something that could have been unique and cater to players that enjoy something a bit different.

As for lore... well, lore is infinitely mutable. The developers have wrapped up SMN in this cocoon of lore that threatens to crush the life out of it, and they've done that to serve their purposes. In fact, they've already broken their own rules by introducing Summoner in the first place - They've created "the Egi clause" to excuse their introduction of summonable Primals. THEY decide how the rules are broken - they can do it just as easily for a different breed of Summoner, if they so choose. It just takes one NPC to make a discovery out of the blue - they do that all the time - and the way could be opened. They're choosing not to, and lore is an excuse, not a reason.

[AugustinesShadow]

Silver, your argument is still "I don't want my job to change! I don't want a XI Summoner clone!" which I'm not saying should occur. I'm just saying that the DoT specialist class you enjoy just needs a new name so that there can be actual Summoners who actually Summon things.

If nothing else your dogged determination is impressive (if unproductive). You're very noticeably and empirically in the minority (in this and other threads, I've noticed) but you're a very VOCAL minority.

At least you're not like Kaitoo, who still has yet to make a coherent point of any kind.

Don't feel threatened. It's great that you enjoy your job, but the job you're enjoying is DoT specialization and burst damage off of it. I don't think that job needs to go away. I just think it needs a new, more appropriate name.

[AugustinesShadow]

To those screaming that I want things rewritten and the game changed all around, that's not consistent with my original post or premise. Keep your words in your own mouth. There's no reason they can't write in an explanation of why what we think is a Summoner now actually turns out to be some other name.

I'm also not asking for 5-minute cut scenes and exorbitant MP costs. Actually I have a number of ideas on how the "New" Summoner could fit right in with current game mechanics, but alarmists who think I'm trying to destroy Necromancer/Warlock instead of just getting it recategorized are too busy indulging in histrionics to have an adult discussion.

[Okamimaru]

this kinda bothers me... i enjoy the class but its hard to call it summoner... green mage maybe... tri-disaster was the summon Tritoch's attack in FF6, it should be a lightning/fire/ice attack not disease... ive said since we dont really have a element wheel in the game have summons all do the same damage, using different aoe zones, and each giving a non stacking bonus (+1) to one stat (titan +1 vit, Ifrit+1 str, ruda +1 mind) carry this on to new egis (shiva +1 int, levi +1 pie, ramuh +1 dex)... make egis look more like their full primal counterparts (im not saying huge primals but come on the primal windup minions look better than the egi we have)... it wouldnt change the class as we have it but it would make it feel more "summoner" like

[zcrash970]

To those screaming that I want things rewritten and the game changed all around, that's not consistent with my original post or premise. Keep your words in your own mouth. There's no reason they can't write in an explanation of why what we think is a Summoner now actually turns out to be some other name.

I'm also not asking for 5-minute cut scenes and exorbitant MP costs. Actually I have a number of ideas on how the "New" Summoner could fit right in with current game mechanics, but alarmists who think I'm trying to destroy Necromancer/Warlock instead of just getting it recategorized are too busy indulging in histrionics to have an adult discussion.

I'm generally curious on what you think what your idea of how a more traditional summoner could work in FF14. The only ways I can think of it are:
1) A job that is completely focused on their pets and all abilities go through said pet (beastmaster)
2) A job that focuses on support abilities with a mix of dps ( basically what FF11 tried to do and what our brd/mch do)
3)A job that that focuses on heavy dmg through high risk spells, high mp costs with high cast times, with minimal support options ( probably wouldn't work because more than likely it will have longer cast times than blm or risk being similar to blm)
4) A job that summons egis to leaves lasting effects on the field that can sync up with other summons' effects ( basically combos)
5) A job where the summons react to what the player casts and amplifies the caster's spells ( kinda like Contagion but on a much wider scale)
6) (My personal favorite) A job that has the current egis but have multiple trances for different elements. Each trance has different spells and effects and pets so the player will need to stance dance and you'll build up energy for your ultimate trance. Dreadwyrm Trance ( basically combining FF114 SMN with GW2 elementalist)

When it comes down to it, summoner just does not have much potential in a mmo especially one like FF14. Combat is far to simply for any advance class mechanics and it has way too much movement for a traditional summoner to work.

[RyanRebs]

Im happy with Summoner , I quit BLM for it . The power of aoe and calling to power of bahamut is so satisfying on its own. We may get 1 more pet to serve the utility role . Never know

[Dyvid]

Silver, your argument is still "I don't want my job to change! I don't want a XI Summoner clone!" which I'm not saying should occur. I'm just saying that the DoT specialist class you enjoy just needs a new name so that there can be actual Summoners who actually Summon things.

If nothing else your dogged determination is impressive (if unproductive). You're very noticeably and empirically in the minority (in this and other threads, I've noticed) but you're a very VOCAL minority.

At least you're not like Kaitoo, who still has yet to make a coherent point of any kind.
Don't feel threatened. It's great that you enjoy your job, but the job you're enjoying is DoT specialization and burst damage off of it. I don't think that job needs to go away. I just think it needs a new, more appropriate name.

Honestly the DoT dps isn't a bad design choice for a pet job. It allows the player to have continuous damage while controlling pets. The problem is FFXIV does really require control of pet so you need something to fill that gap. 2.0 it was spamming ruin and 3.0 it's building up trances.

I'm generally curious on what you think what your idea of how a more traditional summoner could work in FF14. The only ways I can think of it are:
1) A job that is completely focused on their pets and all abilities go through said pet (beastmaster)
2) A job that focuses on support abilities with a mix of dps ( basically what FF11 tried to do and what our brd/mch do)
3)A job that that focuses on heavy dmg through high risk spells, high mp costs with high cast times, with minimal support options ( probably wouldn't work because more than likely it will have longer cast times than blm or risk being similar to blm)
4) A job that summons egis to leaves lasting effects on the field that can sync up with other summons' effects ( basically combos)
5) A job where the summons react to what the player casts and amplifies the caster's spells ( kinda like Contagion but on a much wider scale)
6) (My personal favorite) A job that has the current egis but have multiple trances for different elements. Each trance has different spells and effects and pets so the player will need to stance dance and you'll build up energy for your ultimate trance. Dreadwyrm Trance ( basically combining FF114 SMN with GW2 elementalist)

When it comes down to it, summoner just does not have much potential in a mmo especially one like FF14. Combat is far to simply for any advance class mechanics and it has way too much movement for a traditional summoner to work.

That's a tough one. I don't want any job to face skill bloating so something like FFXI avatar's would be an issue though it was nice to have a wide selection of abilities based on summons. I also want to open the door to many different egi but this causes and issue of what each pets role is. I guess summon and release would address both issues but basically turn egi from pet to spells. I suppose another method would be to make a pet rotation system based on the elemental wheel; were you cast fire > ice > wind > earth > lightning > water. You could even extend this to Bahamut by making him dark then Alexander, light.

[AvenoMatt]

I love SMN but I understand why a lot of players don't feel the SMN we have isn't a real "Summoner". Maybe a way to implement the type of summoner players want is to have a job that casts spell combos that finish with them temporarily summonering a primal that would perform an action be it a burst attack, aoe or some form of utility.They are essential a spell weaver that has summons completing their combos.

As for the renaming of SMN, I don't like Necromancer. I do see the reasoning behind it but I don't like it mainly because I don't think it pairs well with SCH. I think Shaman would be better. Based on what I know a shaman can channel/summon spirits and can even enter trace like states. Though shamans are mainly healers there is no reason why they can't be a dps. I mean a SCH is a healer but it's spreading diseases and casting field of shadows.

[Capriana]

I think Shaman would be better. Based on what I know a shaman can channel/summon spirits and can even enter trace like states. Though shamans are mainly healers there is no reason why they can't be a dps. I mean a SCH is a healer but it's spreading diseases and casting field of shadows.

I don't think I have ever seen a Shaman job in any of the final fantasy games, but could be wrong.

Secondly, I think if we get a Necromancer job it has to be similar to the one in FF V:

The downside to the Necromancer is their inherent undead status, making healing them a chore. Various methods can be used to bypass this, such as White Wind or the Necromancer's Drain Touch skill.

Oh .. the salt ... the SALT.

[Silverquick]

Silver, your argument is still "I don't want my job to change! I don't want a XI Summoner clone!" which I'm not saying should occur. I'm just saying that the DoT specialist class you enjoy just needs a new name so that there can be actual Summoners who actually Summon things.

If nothing else your dogged determination is impressive (if unproductive). You're very noticeably and empirically in the minority (in this and other threads, I've noticed) but you're a very VOCAL minority.

At least you're not like Kaitoo, who still has yet to make a coherent point of any kind.

Don't feel threatened. It's great that you enjoy your job, but the job you're enjoying is DoT specialization and burst damage off of it. I don't think that job needs to go away. I just think it needs a new, more appropriate name.

No no...

I just have serious problems with someone like you who doesn't even play the job regularly (Plays WHM, not even a DPS)... walking in and saying Oh this needs a whole new rework because its not the summoner I PERSONALLY wanted... Screw everyone else ...

Yeah of course I have a serious problem with that.

And I hate to tell you this, but the only "Majority" I'm seeing on the other side of the ball are people like you who MAIN OTHER jobs... but don't play this thing regularly.. .

Yet here I can walk around any given day... on the server and just see one SMN after another enjoying the Job for what it is...

Sorry to break it to you sweetheart... but its YOU in the minority.