Battle system changes

[Kaethra]

They might not know they need to get it. The game doesn't tell you, you need certain skills.

If they don't know, its because they don't want to. I don't get why people keep kicking the can down the road on who to hold responsible.

When some first plays a game. It is their responsibility to learn it. How did the Very First 50 Warrior know to get Provoke? They tinkered with it, they read how cross class worked in the ingame guide. Then they told their friends who told other friends, and then someone posted a forum post and spread it further until there was a website one could find on google.

Why don't we hold everyone to the same standard as the first pioneers of a game? If it was that archaic, then no one would have Provoke other than Paladins. The difference between player skill is how much effort into learning the game, practicing their mechanics, and adapting to new situations.

If someone doesn't have provoke, its because they didn't put in the effort to know that they need it, the effort to get it, and most likely didn't think they needed it. If they leveled a DRK to 60 and entered content that needed it. They learned right then that they should have made more of an effort with their role. And even then there's a likely chance they won't care. Short of giving it to them automatically, and then locking out abilities except for it, they probably still won't use it.

Its common decency to make sure you don't let a group down before entering a group goal oriented duty. If you go in there without the proper tools. Then you let the group down. This cannot at this time be done by 'accident'. 'I didn't know' actually means, 'I didn't care enough to look it up.'

But its easier to blame the game and tell the dev 'fix it for me'. Then it is to hold a person personally responsible. If you kick the can down the road, you eventually will have to deal with it again. In this case. Sure give it to them. But what will you do when they 'don't remember to use it'?

I'd deal with them now. Even if its an 'innocent' (and I don't believe in 60 levels of innocence in this case) then they will still learn. If they are as altruistic as you all claim every newbie to be, then they will right their wrong. So in the end, everything works out.

[Jetstream_Fox]

snip

Such ignorance, first and foremost there were many people when 2.0 launched that didn't have every cross class skill available, I myself didn't have blood for blood once I hit 50 on BRD, I didn't even realize I was missing it because it wasn't a requirement to open up BRD unlike PUG was. I was busy learning my main class and not thinking about nearly maxing out a 3rd class for one skill. Granted with provoke, it's unlocked earlier than almost any skill minus cleric stance that I'm aware of it, it doesn't me this system isn't horribly designed, it's in most cases a horrible attempt to get other players to play other classes with the incentive to use typically one skill out of the toolkit for your main.

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over, it's developmental flawed to not give classes the skills they need to function going forward, you can't shoe horn players into old content for one skill and say with a straight face the system works like it should. As I stated with the Novice Hall and the issue my friend had with it, who might I add didn't buy a sub after his trial because the lack of training the game offers, you can't release a game and keep it updated while expecting new players to be able to learn both the old ways of the game, and the new simultaneously.

[Kaethra]

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over, it's developmental flawed to not give classes the skills they need to function going forward, you can't shoe horn players into old content for one skill and say with a straight face the system works like it should..

I've never debated that fact. The system is flawed. But how many MMOs have flawed systems that take years to be fixed or worse, never fix them? With that said, my point is the system we have is the system we have currently. Therefor everyone is playing under the same system and should be held to the same standard.

If we all threw our hands up and said, "Oop! Systems flawed, lets not do content that requires us to participate in the flawed system" then none of us would have completed some of the harder content. But instead we found ways to mitigate the system or simply toughed it out. The first players did it, the next gen of players did it, and the newer players certainly can do it.

Should it be fixed? Absolutely. But we don't let people off simply because they're not willing to put in the same effort in as the first players who cleared through said content.

[enthauptet]

Not knowing about a skill because you are a new player doesn't mean you aren't making effort. Those two things are completely unrelated. Even the developers have admitted the cross class system is a bad game design which is why they are changing it. You shouldn't have to level other jobs for some basic functionality. If these were advanced skills for high level gameplay like getting that extra 5 % DPS or whatever that would be different but essential skills for gameplay is ridiculous. This is the first game I've ever played where I had to do this and I would imagine so for the vast majority of players, it isn't something anyone really thinks about too much until they start playing other jobs to higher levels which a lot of players never do. Maybe if you could actually see the cross class abilities before you gained them more people would notice them but they don't even show up. Players shouldn't have to go to some place outside of the game to see what the skills are.

[Jetstream_Fox]

snip

Yes and how many of those MMOs die or go free to play because they don't make an effort to fix the flaws? We do not play under a system built for cross class abilities, we haven't since 2.0, again SE made all 3.0 abilities solely job abilities. DRK, MCH, and AST don't feature any base job, they were designed for currently players to pick them up and already know what the basics of each job signifies.

Your entire idea is based off brand new players having the knowledge as players since day one, let's take a new player off the boat. They want to play WHM, so they level CNJ to 30 and ACN to 15, and they go about their time and find out they need swift cast, but they find out because someone from 2.0 told them about it, not the game itself. So now that new player learned something that the game doesn't attempt to make known, only because of someone else.

Again I didn't know I needed Blood for Blood at all until I got to 50, I seen MNK using it and figured it must be something that only physical classes get, and me being ranged wouldn't get that since the trade off of the skill is you take more damage as well, and being ranged I'm not in the immediate area of danger, therefore in my mind that particular skill shouldn't have crossed over.

[Kaitoo]

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You know how ridiculous this reads i hope?

Thats a combination of old people yelling at clouds and saying back in my days we hadnt this so im not using this + because its possible to do it this ways and people before me do this way it should be this way, which is some dangerous line of thinking

[Kaethra]

Yes and how many of those MMOs die or go free to play because they don't make an effort to fix the flaws?

Where did I say they shouldn't? Again you are operating under the assumption I think it should stay how it is, I don't.

But since it IS how it is, we have to deal with it, as the alternative is to what? Quit?. And I don't believe its wrong to think a level 60 'newbie' should be expected to know as much or be expected to learn as much as the first level 50s in 2.0.

[Shurrikhan]

Wouldn't read too much into this one. They had to 'adjust damage calculations, etc' in HW expansion too.

Amounted to little more than tuning the scaling curves of stats to accommodate the new max lvl & ilvl. They have to tweak the pipe-work to keep the stats to yielding what they currently do.

Will have to do that again no doubt.

^ This seemed mostly to be de-tunings for the stats over the increased level cap to ensure that haste, etc., didn't start the new expansion high already (or therefore end the expansion at ridiculous levels). Heck, the changes to how Crit works that came with HW can also be seen as a slight Monk/DRG buff and a noticeable Bard nerf.

[Felis]

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over

Because after lv 50 you don't get class skills anymore, only job skills.

[ErikMynhier]

I think you're right as to the motivation, but it's sad to see. The class system was intended to fill the same role as the Subjob system in FFXI, which provided an astonishingly deep level of customization, particularly when participating in low-man / solo content. I don't think sacrificing this mechanism on the alter of simplicity and accessibility is the right way to go.

That said, CLEARLY the current cross-class system doesn't provide any real semblance of choice or customization. It needs to be addressed. I just disagree with the notion that classes should come 'pre-packaged' so to speak.

The "depth" in FFXI's subjob system was a false choice though. Sure you could technically do whatever you liked, but in my 10 years the community always had BiS and god help you if you deviated even a little.