Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Welsper59]

The only lasting way to get more people to be healers is to remove that spotlight of responsibility from them. It's the same for other important roles, which would pretty much just be tank, in this games case. It's one of the reasons why people generally don't volunteer to do something different, but important... Dragon Killer, anyone?

Some folks don't care about that spotlight or responsibility and do it anyway. Good on them. We need more people like that. The vast majority are not though. They're either too shy to try, paranoid, or lazy to bother. That lazy part though doesn't necessarily have too much to do with the healers bit though, since it's simply a mode/style of play, the same as how DPSing has its own style of play.

Remove the spotlight and responsibility, you'll have more people willing to take on these jobs. In other words, if the game were designed to automatically heal the party without you needing to prioritize who gets heals (i.e. it's not your fault if something goes wrong), then you'd see more healers. That is especially true if it were a la WoW's Disc Priest (earlier versions), where smart healing was a thing and kept things fun due to damage done = heals automatically applied to party members. Your typical manual input was just who to put a shield on first (absorbs damage), before you end up applying it to everyone seconds later anyway.

Not saying that's what should be done, but it's really the only way to get people to play roles with responsibilities that put the spotlight on the one player.

[Ama_Hamada]

The question wasn't about most effective, you asked for proof of their original intention.


under 40 you don't, heal through it, everybody else does. what 8 man content is there between Lv 30 and 40 that you can have a SCH and a WHM at the same time that the WHM can be the one using it? no idea why you think you don't have to leeches stuff after 40 though.

AST has nothing to do with original intention either. they originally screwed up WAR really bad that's why it didn't have Provoke and generally sucked at everything.

So you did not read my post, let me bold something in it, then we can try again, yes? You missed my point on why I bought up leeches being obtained at 40 and yet not the same for ast/whm/cnj

So is raging strikes, blood for blood, swiftcast, etc, sure you can feint, keen fury, foresight, skull sunder, and fracture your monk, go on about how "invigorate" is not needed then complain about not aoe DPS cuz no tp, because it is not "universal" .. then go nuts I guess? Some people want to be most effective.

I guess I should not have to leeches everything ever because I get it at 40, so WHM should be the one using it. Throwing fallacies is nice and all but gets us nowhere in progress of a discussion. Bringing in leeches only makes your argument weak since we get that at 40, while whm and ast get their version at 18. Also AST needs to cross cleric, no new added healer has gotten something like cleric, so saying healers do not get it by default to prove something in an argument holds no water. Both healer jobs that have to cross class it have no healing class base, it was likely just an oversight (again likely changing for SB), hey I guess SCH shouldn't have protect too right?

In the end, cleric use advice is put in the hall of novice in group settings. I have done it. it is meant to stance in the game. They do not include healer DPS in DPS checks because it would make the stuff too damn hard. That is not proof if SE intended players stance dance in group settings. When you have a guide like hall of novice teaching you to do so, then it does show they foresaw players doing it.

BTW, SB is likely changing this, giving us cleric, esuna, protect, and stoneskin at reasonable levels.

Yoshida: Well, the calculations are based on the item level assumed during development.

Ah, and that's different from the minimum item level required to try the content.

Yoshida: Yes. So if you try to clear it at a lower item level, it will be necessary for tanks and healers to participate in attacking. The difference in skill levels for DPS players will be a factor. If you're below the 85 to 90 percent damage assumption, you'll have to fill in the gap with DPS from tanks and healers. If the DPS work together and think about total party damage, it may also help to break through.

So healers may need to participate in the attack if there wouldn't otherwise be enough. Well, even if there is, healers may also attack just to provide a margin.

Yoshida: Yeah. Especially in Savage because it is difficult to deal damage while handling the mechanics I think there is some opportunity there.

Where is proof of this? I was doing it since 2.0 was released (I do admit I did get comments about it here and there where now it doesn't exist, and the reason for that has to do with the huge healing downtime. I only take it off to cast a cure here and there, otherwise 90%-100%, depending on df, is cleric. Some people did not realize I was taking it off for one healing spell and putting it back on right away back then.) The novice quests for healers talk about doing it as well. Healing in this game has lot of downtime, so I am not sure "SE didn't originally intend for it to be used to stance dance" is coming from.

Also all games apart from FFXI (where healers can still chip in DPS wise though debuff and banish III/holy double magic bursts, least back before level cap broke 75 and SC was a thing) Healers had ways of DPS, and from my understanding what others said, is unique to the FF franchise.



again, really? I do not think SE had that mindset, esp when it is in the hall of novice.

TLDR:
They intended Healers to do damage in group content. I gave lots of proof why

[Sebazy]

It's cross class for SCHs. so basically they built the SCH job with the option of not having Cleric Stance.

if it's universal that healers gotta have it, it would be like Esuna/Leeches, Raise/Resurrection, they would've given SCH their own version with a different name.

I'm fairly certain that Taunt breaks that theory unfortunately, it was absolutely mandatory right from the first raid tier in BCOB. Surecast is another example of a quirky little cross class ability that was rather important for early Turn 5 clears.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

What? I'm coming from experiencing this encounter during early progression (Granted personal illness and FC drama meant I got my clear quite late compared to my much earlier A1S-A3S clears). I can 100% say without any shadow of a doubt that your understanding is categorically wrong. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, A4S wasn't a complex fight (It was actually quite slow paced and mostly simplistic compared to A3S) especially with the cheese strat quickly becoming the norm.

The actually reasoning behind this was down to how Yoshida's play testers tested and balanced the encounter, Yoshida openly stated that the root course of the problem was in them testing the encounter phase by phase rather than as a single continuous fight. I'm inclined to go one step further and guess that they made the error of going at each phase with full hp/mp and cooldowns as well, thus in their eyes the DPS checks weren't all that extreme. They clearly learned their lesson as neither Midas nor Creator have any DPS checks that are anything like as tight as A4S was.

But yeah, I really don't think you comprehend just how incredibly severe A4S' DPS checks were, unless you had 4 Brusef grade DPSers on tap, you absolutely weren't getting past those DPS pushes without both the healers and tanks doing some serious optimisation =(

You can't really use an instance where the devs themselves admitted they overdid it as justification that content demands healer DPS - especially when that's part of the reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear at the start of Heavensward, and even after 3.2 reintroduced some fixes to healer accuracy, the content still wasn't designed with healer dps factored in.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

So you did not read my post, let me bold something in it, then we can try again, yes?






TLDR:
They intended Healers to do damage in group content. I gave lots of proof why

No, they didn't. Hall of the novice was only introduced recently after tons of people whined for it and healer dps was never taken into account for anything. He's basically saying if you go into it under geared you likely won't be able to clear without extra dps from the healers but if you go in at the appropriate gear levels and the dps play optimally there is no need for healer dps.

[Ama_Hamada]

You can't really use an instance where the devs themselves admitted they overdid it as justification that content demands healer DPS - especially when that's part of the reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear at the start of Heavensward, and even after 3.2 reintroduced some fixes to healer accuracy, the content still wasn't designed with healer dps factored in.

Because if it was, and made harder, it would be too hard for most GROUPS. There is a good number of situations where healer DPS depends on people not stand in fire and tanks to know what they are doing, 2 or 3 days ago a kick was passed on a tank because of this reason + harassing me over using hallowed ground when doing all 3 groups in first pull in wall expert.

Healers where always intended to DPS here and there to help groups, but it is very difficult to gauge how much they can contribute, there is too many factories that can limit healers of being able to DPS, then on top of that you have to question how well a healer is at DPS then changing to healing, it is hard enough finding DPS in expert that know how to DPS properly. If you want an idea of range it can be, its 500-1000 DPS on bosses and up to 2000's on trash. It has a big range, and what you hit depends on what others are doing.

[Gemina]

They never stated such. As a matter of fact, they stated the opposite...

Yoshida: Well, the calculations are based on the item level assumed during development.

Ah, and that's different from the minimum item level required to try the content.

Yoshida: Yes. So if you try to clear it at a lower item level, it will be necessary for tanks and healers to participate in attacking. The difference in skill levels for DPS players will be a factor. If you're below the 85 to 90 percent damage assumption, you'll have to fill in the gap with DPS from tanks and healers. If the DPS work together and think about total party damage, it may also help to break through.

Based off of those comments, it actually sounds like they corrected it, or corrected a misinterpretation that they cleared content at the minimum iLv. My impression of it, I could have sworn came off of something they stated, but cannot for the life of me find the source now. The item level "assumed" is also vague to me. I don't know what they mean by that.

The bolded sentence takes my personal cake. They literally seem to expect you as DPS to pull 85-90% of your dummy parse while dealing with mechanics when they do their balancing >_>

It does for me as well. Looking at the commentary you provided, it kind of looks like this is in my head:

Yoshida: We let a blindfolded monkey throw a dart at a board of numbers to determine a base iLv

Questioner: Brilliant! So healers don't have to DPS then?

Yoshida: Yes and no. If damage is lacking from DPS, healers and tanks have to pick up the slack.

Questioner: Ah! So it is possible for DPS to pull 85-90% of what they parser on a dummy?

Yoshida: Yes, but it's pretty hard to do.

Questioner: So healers should DPS then?

Yoshida: Certainly helps!

[SendohJin]

So you did not read my post, let me bold something in it, then we can try again, yes?

i read all of your post, most of it is irrelevant, Novice Hall came out long after the game became what it was.

go on about how "invigorate" is not needed then complain about not aoe DPS cuz no tp

hey I guess SCH shouldn't have protect too right?

the only parts worth responding to are these.

it was never their original intention for every job to be good at AOE, they never intended all the players to play every dungeon as pull everything all at once and AOE them all. it was because the players insisted that this was the best way and that jobs that couldn't do it were shunned that eventually they balanced everything out this way.

the protect SCHs got during game launch was barely worth using. might as well have a PLD use it, cause you needed the WHM to have the Magic Defense trait anyways.

---

I'm fairly certain that Taunt breaks that theory unfortunately, it was absolutely mandatory right from the first raid tier in BCOB. Surecast is another example of a quirky little cross class ability that was rather important for early Turn 5 clears.

it doesn't really. a lot of times they didn't know they screwed up till after the playerbase gets a hold of it. we're talking about their original intention before launch. if their pre-launch was balanced for Coil, would WAR have been so terrible? would dragoon take extra damage to magic attacks? they had lots of oversights that required tweaking over time.

the players always exceed their expectations that's why they have to nerf us. remember Virus rotation?

and lots of things got done after the fact, like "well if the players are going to do this", we're going to design new fights specifically to counter it.

[Sebazy]

You can't really use an instance where the devs themselves admitted they overdid it as justification that content demands healer DPS.

It wasn't just A4S though, these issues were plainly obvious throughout the bulk of that raid tier when Yoshida came out with the quote. A2S allowed SCHs to hit incredible DPS numbers that are still top tier level today, whereas A3S heralded what was to come later on with some pretty steep DPS checks of it's own (the saving grace here was that the main check was rather early in the fight). It's funny to look back at some of the crazy theory crafting that went over Hand of Pain before people realised it was just a straight up mini DPS race.

I suspect the detail you are missing here is the point at which a static first enters the content. Step foot into savage at the start of the tier with near enough min ilvl gear and your healers and tanks are going to have to pitch in, even Yoshida conceded this point. Further on down the line with tome gear and such behind you and it's not nearly so apparent as your DPS will be doing significantly better numbers.

[Ama_Hamada]

i read all of your post, most of it is irrelevant, Novice Hall came out long after the game became what it was.
the only parts worth responding to are these.

it was never their original intention for every job to be good at AOE, they never intended all the players to play every dungeon as pull everything all at once and AOE them all. it was because the players insisted that this was the best way and that jobs that couldn't do it were shunned that eventually they balanced everything out this way.

the protect SCHs got during game launch was barely worth using. might as well have a PLD use it, cause you needed the WHM to have the Magic Defense trait anyways.

---




it doesn't really. a lot of times they didn't know they screwed up till after the playerbase gets a hold of it. we're talking about their original intention before launch. if their pre-launch was balanced for Coil, would WAR have been so terrible? would dragoon take extra damage to magic attacks? they had lots of oversights that required tweaking over time.

the players always exceed their expectations that's why they have to nerf us. remember Virus rotation?

and lots of things got done after the fact, like "well if the players are going to do this", we're going to design new fights specifically to counter it.

So you are telling me jobs where intended to be left out of content? I wouldn't take someone refusing to AoE where AoE is needed, for protect you are talking about a change years old, way to suit your narrative.

Healers where intended to help DPS 2.0 +, (HELL they where basically a nuker that can heal in 1.0 lamo) they just do not know the amounts players would be able carry out. For SCH, the SCH and SMN was a 1.0 relic that did not fit in the game to begin with, so quoting what they did to SCH in any form holds no water to an argument anyway. Giving us leeches at 40 is just ****, to give you an idea how much oversight they can have in regards to balance.

Not having a cross class ability by default does not show intention. They gave lacking tools to give cross classing some purpose, again it is a 1.0 relic, it never did fit in 2.0+, why they are changing things in SB (should happened in HW)