Tank Stances.

[bswpayton]

Here's the problem with your comparison; you want people to get better in PoTD when it's probably one of the worst ways to level, if they haven't figured out tank

I think that most people know you can tank every form of content with no tank stance on certainly. I personally try to learn how to do any content withou tmy tank stance, I and others just think it can be risky pulling no stance with random people. I mean using your example I personally will def try to do more of what youve done , but I have had issues with healers , healing in tank stance period so I know that doing so without a stance could lead to more wipes.

[aqskerorokero]

Why you talk like drk and war are only tanks in this game lol.
The two are dps oriented with tools that works without the tank stance. Abyssal drain itself is an aoe, aggro generetor, and a sustain cd.

bloodbath/vengeance/operpowers work as the same.

Op talks about Tank stance in general I guess, so consider that Pld is a tank too which can do the same huge mega pull like other 2 tanks but NEEDS and I repeat NEEDS tank stance to do so. Otherwise a couple of good dps can steal aggro every single pull.

There is few people out there that play pld as main and need tips and understanding from others you know.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

But see, here's the thing...

A PLD needing tank stance for a huge pull has nothing to do with tank stance (which, if I may remind you, is the topic of this thread) and everything to do with the fact that their main AoE threat generator does no damage. When your main threat AoE does no damage, why bother leaving tank stance? PLD will actually do MORE damage, more than likely, if they simply stay in ShO and hit flash only 2 or 3 times and then switch to GB rotating. In SwO, by the time you've Flashed enough to cement aggro, the mobs are likely at 50-60% and not even worth DoTing. So unless you have a NIN shadewalkering you and then spamming Death Blossom, you'll probably do more damage on PLD in tank stance than out of it, not because of the tank stance itself, but because Flash is hot, hot garbage.

I'll admit, there may be skilled PLDs out there that can prove me wrong, I genuinely don't know because I love myself too much to run a dungeon on PLD.

[bounddreamer]

Can confirm big pulls while Gritless are completely viable and cause so little strain on the healer that my guy actually asked if I was using more cooldowns than usual. (No.) I wouldn't do it with my SMN, who would probably crit everything off me so we'd be playing aggro tag, but it worked just fine with the party comp I had yesterday. Next I'll try it with a random DF group and not a full premade.

Grit isn't really a stance so much as it is a cooldown.

[winsock]

Can we drop this idea that dropping your tank stance makes you a good tank? It's bullshit...
...
You are a TANK. You're not a Dragoon. You're not a Ninja. You're not a Monk. You're not a Samurai. Your job is to focus enemy damage on yourself and survive it. If you want to do better DPS, go play one of those jobs.

Dropping tank stance can be a marker of a good tank and I'd like to take a crack at convincing you of that.

This is the easiest point to make as you mentioned you make big pulls. Anytime you have decided to pull more than the absolute minimum number of mobs, you are deciding to increase the amount of healing required. The payoff for pulling more than the minimum is higher dps and a faster clear time, so many tanks do it. Increasing the HPS requirement in exchange for more DPS is pretty normal in FFXIV, so if dropping tank stance results in more party dps, why not?

I would argue that tanks dropping tank stance are similar to tanks who make large pulls. Both can go overboard and cause more harm than good, but the ones who do it well are good players.

[Lyth]

I can't say that I recall any instances where the game specifically tells you that you ought to only use certain stances for tanking. Calling Shield Oath or Grit "tank stance" begs the question, in a way. The tooltips just tell you that they trade damage for more enmity and mitigation.

Stances are generally about trade-offs, so there's usually an opportunity cost associated with keeping one active. On MNK, do you want to take less damage, move faster, or do more damage? You can't do all of these at once, so you have to pick. Do you want your NIN to Silence or Stun? If you're open minded, you can find uses for each.

On a tank, you should know how much enmity you need and how much mitigation you need. If you do not, you will misjudge the trade-off and either die, lose aggro, or do negligible dps. If this is overly difficult, there are plenty of jobs which don't require this kind of decision making. Unfortunately, at the moment, none of them are tanks.

[Neela]

Here's the problem with your comparison; you want people to get better in PoTD when it's probably one of the worst ways to level, if they haven't figured out tank stance or how to tank properly there's not much you can do about that it's a player base problem.

wait what?! I hate player who level their chars in potd - for me potd is the worst update se brought us since a long time, if not since the beginning. think u missunderstood my whole point.

About your spreading this "nonsense" look at Syzzles post she did a gigantic pull without Grit on and did she lose threat? No. I even stated that I had a Smn in ilvl 268-269 who had an ilvl 270 book and fully melded Deathflaring and I didn't lose threat once. So you must be doing something wrong so don't blame it on the lack of emnity I stated i've had 0 issues even with a caster heavy group double SMN/ or SMN/BLM/WHM so I would say that this falls on you.

for real? how can it be my fault if the tank looses enmity to my deathflare? its fact that most of the current tanks can't stand a ilvl 270 deathflare with 275 anima. if you are one of the less who actually can play your cls - fine good for you, me and everyone - but like I said more and more tanks I met can't deal with that, and telling them to tank off-stance cause its "easy" is just dumb.

got the feeling that you didn't even read my post at least in both points you haven't got what I said... .___.

I wouldn't do it with my SMN, who would probably crit everything off me so we'd be playing aggro tag, but it worked just fine with the party comp I had yesterday.

this is what im talking about dear Awful... this is my daily life as SMN nowadays cause of guys who don't care to use their stance and enmity skills right.

[FallenWings]

for real? how can it be my fault if the tank looses enmity to my deathflare? its fact that most of the current tanks can't stand a ilvl 270 deathflare with 275 anima. if you are one of the less who actually can play your cls - fine good for you, me and everyone - but like I said more and more tanks I met can't deal with that, and telling them to tank off-stance cause its "easy" is just dumb.

got the feeling that you didn't even read my post at least in both points you haven't got what I said... .___.

this is what im talking about dear Awful... this is my daily life as SMN nowadays cause of guys who don't care to use their stance and enmity skills right.

I don't know about you but I as a DRK have no reason to fear a 400 Pot single attack when I have a 600 Enmity Pot move I can spam.

Like you I can also crit my abyssal drains and unlike you in most cases, I can use this move immediately and almost indefinitely.

By the time you can shoot your deathflare I've already done 2-4 Abyssal Drains. If you did it immediatetly at the start when the tank is still gathering the mobs, that is on you. If you put are with a lower geared tank but didn't use quelling that's on you. Infact, even with similiar geared tanks, quelling is a no brainer if you plan to burst or use raging strikes.

It's as much on you to check health/buffs/gear as it is the tank's in determining on how to proceed with enmity control.

[Neela]

It's as much on you to check health/buffs/gear as it is the tank's in determining on how to proceed with enmity control.

yeah sure completely right - never said the opposite.

and again, if you can deal with that its fine. although its not just deathflare vs. abysaal, there are baned buffed dots, painflare, dbl buffed enkindle, arealslash, shadowflare and bliz spam as well in burstmode... aside of this I just said to tell tanks its totally okay to go off stance is stupid. honestly if we break it down: DDs should deal dmg, tanks should hold the pack. if you can hold it without stance go for it. if the dds or healer have to suffer than just don't do it. - that being said there are many tanks out there who can't deal with that lately - and that sucks. giving those people the feeling they do everything right is just a thing I can't stand as main-dd.

[FallenWings]

Sure, but we also shouldn't deny them the fact that they can do it. I personally would rather see them fail while trying, rather than prohibit it all together. Again, it's multiple layers of variations to consider so yes it's not a straight answer of "no tank stance or gtfo" but a "do what is most appropriate" or more aptly "gitgud".

Again, Abyssal Drain spam(Tank Deathflare) on 2.1 sec recast, Salted Earth, and Dark Arts Dark Passenger. Oh and JOHN FUDGING MADDEN with the other oGCDs.