New Class Idea

[TouchandFeel]

I don't think I conveyed my point well enough. Cecil uses Dark Swords. What is a dark sword? Is it a katana? Is it a broadsword? Is it a sabre? Yes and no. It could be anything, just as long as it's imbued with darkness.

I explicitly stated and used the term Dark Swords when speaking about Dark Knight signature weapons. What I argued against was that the specific Dark Swords used by Cecil were katana as was stated by the poster I initially responded to. I stated that based on Amano's artwork which was the best visual representation of Cecil at the time the game was released, the swords that he used were not katana and had a more Western design. As you stated, semantically Dark Swords could be anything, but the ones that were being spoken of were not katana.

Other than using swords... what carries over to Dark Knight?

The fact that their Dark Swords were darkness aspected as a game mechanic as well as the whole concept of a Dark Swordsman wielding a special sword imbued with dark power which is sort of the basis for Dark Knight.

I understand the translation, I was saying Mystic Knight to make it easier to discuss.
You ever watch Final Fantasy Unlimited? In it, the main character uses something called the Magun. The Demon Gun. Does it wield the power of darkness? No. It's used as a tool for summoning the various espers/eidolons that we know from the series. The conclusion here is that "demon", when used in Japanese as a descriptor, does not necessarily equate to darkness. It's mostly synonymous with "magic". "Mahou" can easily be taken as an evil force or demon magic, depending on what the author of a story wants to do with it.

You really should not use anime as your reference for what things mean in Japanese, the translations into English often take a great deal of "artistic license" and often alter the meanings of things, misinterpret them or have trouble conveying the implications of words and ideas.

"Ma" in this context most certainly implies darkness in the sense of dark equating to evil/negative. The character for "ma" conveys a dark/evil spirit or force, often associated with curses in the way that a person or object can be beset or imbued with a dark spirit or force. It is not conceptually synonymous with magic as you state.

Translating "Magun" to "Demon Gun" is sort of correct but not exactly as it is really more like "Dark spirit gun" as far as a direct translation, but I would guess that they were trying to imply something along the line of "gun with ancient forbidden power", still conveying the implied dark/evil aspect inherent to "ma" but in a "cool" sense. Seeing as how "Magun" is a made up word for an anime, using it or its questionable subtitle translation as an arguing point on what the understood meaning of "ma" is is probably not the best approach.

"Mahou" can be flavored good or evil because just like its closest English translation, magic or mystical/supernatural abilities, it is general and does not have an implied good/bad/light/dark affinity like "ma" does. Saying that it can easily be taken as "evil force" or "demon magic" is a big stretch.

At this point I'm done, there is really nothing else to say on this matter and there is no point in continuing this tangential debate.

I will however leave you and others that consider themselves Japanese subject matter experts because they watch anime, play jrpgs or eat Pocky a little advice. You're not. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great you appreciate aspects of the culture, but don't put on airs because of it. Unless you are a native speaker, have lived a while in Japan or at least have a native speaker to corroborate with you, I would avoid making yourself out to be an authority. I mean the last thing you would want is to end up telling a person of Japanese heritage what is or isn't Japanese, right?

[Freyt]

I stated that based on Amano's artwork
At this point I'm done

Amano's art isn't exactly on your side.


Since you're done, I'll just summarize your whole argument.

"Final Fantasy 3's "Makenshi" are Dark Knights"
- They were later re-adapted into Dark Knights in the DS release
- Them using white magic doesn't matter

"Cecil did not use Katanas"
- Amano's art has a cross guard
- Dissidia's classic DLC shows a "stylized sabre"

""Mahou" and "Ma" are not linked at all"
- Because anime is meaningless

Problem areas in your argument:
- "white magic doesn't matter"
- attributing too many things to "ma", such as dark, and curse (dark =/= evil; evil =/= dark)
- ignoring Final Fantasy: Unlimited because it's anime
- ignoring that "mahou" has been classicly demonic, and has only become "good" due to anime

魔法 - Mahou - Magic
魔剣士 - Makenshi - Cursed Swordsman/Magic Swordsman (FF3's job)
暗黒騎士 - Ankoku Kishi - Darkness Knight (Dark Knight)

If you just examine one words meaning, then you arrive at the conclusion that Makenshi is a Cursed Swordsman. If you factor in that SE has been continually taking away anything demonic related to Makenshi, then you can determine that Makenshi used "ma" in the same way that "mahou" used "ma". In short, you could say this is the anime definition of Makenshi, rather than a literal one.

As they came up with Dark Knight, they pulled abilities and traits from things they had made in the past, resulting in Dark Knight using some of the more dark-related aspects of Magic Swordsman. To remain consistent, when they revisited FF3 for its remake, they replaced Magic Swordsman entirely with Dark Knight, as they still needed something to fill the role that Magic Swordsman filled then.

In the anime you want to ignore, Final Fantasy: Unlimited, there is a character literally named Makenshi, who's name is meant to describe the actual character. He wields a sword, and uses magic. Nothing about his seems dark or evil, in fact, his nick name is "white cloud", as he summons a Mist Dragon, while his direct counterpart is Kaze, nicknamed Black Wind. But this is all irrelevant, because although all of this is literally Final Fantasy, it is also anime, so it doesn't count.

[Niwashi]

But... Botanists already use scythes.

They also use axes. Should Warriors be worried?
(Yeah, I know. A botanist's hatchet is quite a ways removed from a battle axe. I just thought it seemed funny.)

"Ma" in this context most certainly implies darkness in the sense of dark equating to evil/negative. The character for "ma" conveys a dark/evil spirit or force, often associated with curses in the way that a person or object can be beset or imbued with a dark spirit or force. It is not conceptually synonymous with magic as you state.

"Mahou" can be flavored good or evil because just like its closest English translation, magic or mystical/supernatural abilities, it is general and does not have an implied good/bad/light/dark affinity like "ma" does. Saying that it can easily be taken as "evil force" or "demon magic" is a big stretch.

"Ma" can in some cases involve an evil or negative connotation and in other cases not. This is because, although its closest English equivalent is usually considered to be "devil" or "demon", the spirits of Japanese folklore and legends don't match those of the west. While Japanese demons are frequently harmful, they aren't inherently evil in the way that the demons of western religions and folklore are. But as supernatural beings, they are inherently magical, which is why "mahou" a compound formed of "demon-act" simply means magic, with neither a good nor bad connotation to it. (If you want to indicate in Japanese a demon that's actively evil, you can specify that separately, like with "akuma" a compound of "evil-demon".)

It seems a bit inconsistent that you'd claim "ma" gives an evil/negative connotation when it's used as part of a word, and then point out yourself that "mahou", which itself starts with that same "ma", doesn't have any such connotation. It seems like a better fit to regard the "ma" in "makenshi" as having about the same connotation that it has in "mahou" in referring just to magical power.

[Fukuro]

I'd rather have some kind of a job using dark magic, not like black mage but something like majin/occultist in the directions of a necromancer - i feel something in that direction is missing in this game...

But i also see why people could see a too big resemblance to the black mage

[Kazrah]

I'd rather have some kind of a job using dark magic, not like black mage but something like majin/occultist in the directions of a necromancer - i feel something in that direction is missing in this game...

But i also see why people could see a too big resemblance to the black mage

That's because Black Mage is the dark magic user. Black Mage is the occultist. It just requires reading the text in those cutscenes to know.

The only reason why we haven't gone further toward the macabre as far as jobs go is really because of how much it would likely clash with the overall lore Black Mage already has.