New Class Idea

[TouchandFeel]

...in FFXI and no other game in the series. And even there your initial weapon is a greatsword. The original Dark Knight (i.e., Cecil) used katana-style swords and shields, which was based on the similar (but different!) mystic knight from FFIII.

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people who think FFXI is the gospel of the Final Fantasy series. :P

Dark Knight was a class in FF 3, which is before Cecil who was in F4. Cecil uses a Dark Sword, which are magic swords imbued with darkness and more closely resemble a European long sword or maybe a bastard sword and not a katana. Mystic Knight (which is different than Rune Knight, the class of Celes from FF6) didn't appear until FF5. Also, while not super explicit as to classes, Leon from FF2 is classified/considered a Dark Knight.

Just wanted to clear that up.

But yes, FF11 was the only one that had Dark Knights use scythes and that one game by no means defines the series as a whole. It can be used as a reference point though.

[Talraen]

Dark Knight was a class in FF 3, which is before Cecil who was in F4. Cecil uses a Dark Sword, which are magic swords imbued with darkness and more closely resemble a European long sword or maybe a bastard sword and not a katana. Mystic Knight (which is different than Rune Knight, the class of Celes from FF6) didn't appear until FF5. Also, while not super explicit as to classes, Leon from FF2 is classified/considered a Dark Knight.

Just wanted to clear that up.

But yes, FF11 was the only one that had Dark Knights use scythes and that one game by no means defines the series as a whole. It can be used as a reference point though.

No. Dark Knights were not in FF3 until the DS release, 16 years after the original. In the original, they were "Demon Swordsman" or "Magic Swordsman" (the actual Japanese name being Makenshi, as opposed to the Japanese name for Dark Knights, Ankoku Kishi), though the most popular fan translation called them Mystic Knights, and they used level 1-3 white magic (which is why you can't really consider them Dark Knights). Their weapons are all katana, with the exception of the Moonring Blade and Ragnarok sword.

Cecil uses the same types of swords (curved and single-bladed; you can tell because of the slight extension at the top of the combat sword sprite) as FFIII Mystic Knights, which makes sense because FFIV is basically FFIII fanfic. However, they've never been given Japanese names like other katana in the series in any English translation, and Edge wields the swords with those typical names.

Pretty much all of this has been retconned into what you said, but I prefer to study the originals. :P

[TouchandFeel]

No. Dark Knights were not in FF3 until the DS release, 16 years after the original. In the original, they were "Demon Swordsman" or "Magic Swordsman" (the actual Japanese name being Makenshi, as opposed to the Japanese name for Dark Knights, Ankoku Kishi), though the most popular fan translation called them Mystic Knights, and they used level 1-3 white magic (which is why you can't really consider them Dark Knights). Their weapons are all katana, with the exception of the Moonring Blade and Ragnarok sword.

Cecil uses the same types of swords (curved and single-bladed; you can tell because of the slight extension at the top of the combat sword sprite) as FFIII Mystic Knights, which makes sense because FFIV is basically FFIII fanfic. However, they've never been given Japanese names like other katana in the series in any English translation, and Edge wields the swords with those typical names.

Pretty much all of this has been retconned into what you said, but I prefer to study the originals. :P

I'm going to simply agree to disagree here.

To me Makenshi are closer to and in my opinion, the precursor to, Dark Knight. For starters, the original name Makenshi translates closer to Dark Swordsman/Cursed Swordsman/etc., being a combination of maken (evil/cursed sword) and shi (person), similar to kenshi (ken/sword+shi/person --> swordsman), which conceptually is closer to Dark Knight than what the series has defined as Mystic Knight. Their specialized weapons, dark swords, were also darkness aspected. Yes, they had white magic but that fits with neither Dark Knight nor Mystic Knight, so you can't say that it steers them exactly in either direction. In my opinion (and Squeenix's apparently since that is what they changed it to) Makenshi's closest iconic job equivalent is Dark Knight.

It is true that Cecil is the first appearance of a class/job that fits what became the iconic form of Dark Knight with the ability Darkness/Soul Eater and psuedo black magic, however he is not the first reference to a Dark Swordsman/ Dark Knight due to the FF3 class and Leon from 2. Semantic argument really. I just don't consider Cecil the "original".

As for the swords, yes the Makenshi from 3 used what were most likely katana. Cecil, as far as I can tell, did not. I base this off all the original concept art for Cecil done by Amano which shows him to be using a sword most akin to a Western longsword based on the fact the sword has a cross-guard.

Anyhoo, I mainly was opposed to your usage of Mystic Knight as I feel it is incorrect since that is a different iconic FF job and it doesn't fit with the class from FF3. If you want to classify Makenshi as it's own unique job, I can get behind that. Cecil being the "original" is based on opinion and where you feel dark knight first truly appeared in the series.

[Freyt]

I'm going to simply agree to disagree here.

I'd say he's a lot closer than you are.

In Dissidia they re-conceptualized everything. They also made a "classic" costume for Cecil for his Dark Knight and Paladin forms.



Cecil used "Dark Swords". This is specific. You could take it as that Cecil would use a sword tainted with dark energy, whether it was a broadsword or a katana. Also just because you feel a certain way about FF3's Mystic Knights doesn't make that the case. They functioned entirely different any Dark Knight to come after.

[TouchandFeel]

I'd say he's a lot closer than you are.

In Dissidia they re-conceptualized everything. They also made a "classic" costume for Cecil for his Dark Knight and Paladin forms.



Cecil used "Dark Swords". This is specific. You could take it as that Cecil would use a sword tainted with dark energy, whether it was a broadsword or a katana. Also just because you feel a certain way about FF3's Mystic Knights doesn't make that the case. They functioned entirely different any Dark Knight to come after.

I'm not sure what the Dissidia "redesign" has to do with what I said. The Dissidia incarnation is based off Amano's concept work which is what I referenced in my post as to why I don't believe Cecil uses katana. Even in the image you linked Cecil has a sword that is much more Western in design, being debatebly a stylized sabre, and definitely not a katana. Just because a sword is single-edged and has a slight curve to it doesn't automatically make it a katana.

As to Makenshi being different than the later and iconic version of Dark Knight, that is just as true with Mystic Knight. I even spoke to that in my post, stating that they were different but had elements that would later be part of what became Dark Knight and that the similarities were far greater than any similarities to the iconic Mystic Knight.

Also the translation of Makenshi as "Mystic Knight" was from a fan translation and is far from correct as I broke down in my post as to what the original Japanese name means by breaking it down into it's parts. Ma roughly translates to evil, cursed, devilish. Ken is sword. Shi is person. Together they form Makenshi, meaning evil/cursed/dark/devilish swordsman and most definitely not Mystic Knight. The Japanese name used for Mystic Knight in Final Fantasy is Mahoukenshi which translates to magic swordsman.

I also stated in my post that if they wanted to consider Makenshi it's own unique job, that would be fine but it is closer to Dark Knight than Mystic Knight for all the reasons I listed already.

[Freyt]

Just because a sword is single-edged and has a slight curve to it doesn't automatically make it a katana.

had elements that would later be part of what became Dark Knight and that the similarities were far greater than any similarities to the iconic Mystic Knight.

Together they form Makenshi, meaning evil/cursed/dark/devilish swordsman and most definitely not Mystic Knight. The Japanese name used for Mystic Knight in Final Fantasy is Mahoukenshi which translates to magic swordsman.

I don't think I conveyed my point well enough. Cecil uses Dark Swords. What is a dark sword? Is it a katana? Is it a broadsword? Is it a sabre? Yes and no. It could be anything, just as long as it's imbued with darkness.

Other than using swords... what carries over to Dark Knight?

I understand the translation, I was saying Mystic Knight to make it easier to discuss.
You ever watch Final Fantasy Unlimited? In it, the main character uses something called the Magun. The Demon Gun. Does it wield the power of darkness? No. It's used as a tool for summoning the various espers/eidolons that we know from the series. The conclusion here is that "demon", when used in Japanese as a descriptor, does not necessarily equate to darkness. It's mostly synonymous with "magic". "Mahou" can easily be taken as an evil force or demon magic, depending on what the author of a story wants to do with it.

[ADVSS]

Dark Knight was a class in FF 3, which is before Cecil who was in F4. Cecil uses a Dark Sword, which are magic swords imbued with darkness and more closely resemble a European long sword or maybe a bastard sword and not a katana. Mystic Knight (which is different than Rune Knight, the class of Celes from FF6) didn't appear until FF5. Also, while not super explicit as to classes, Leon from FF2 is classified/considered a Dark Knight.

Just wanted to clear that up.
.

If youre talking about the ds remake yeah they called it dark knight and heavilly modified what it really did in that game.
The same exact class from the famicon version was a magic knight, which actually used level 1 white magic and used katana like the murasame etc. What i remember most about them is the need to use these swords in a specific pudding filled cave where the enemies would continuously multiply unless cut by one of these swords. Cecil does use "dark swords" but notice how the icon for them looks....exactly the same as edge the ninja's katana icon? At least it was that way in the original snes version

the ff3 version was usually translated to m.knight, which could mean mystic or magic also